link to Home Page

icon 05-Apr-98

Note: it is a general Troubled Times policy to change the names of IRC participants to screen names and remove personal discussions that occurred during the chat in the interests of privacy.

SPOT: It is funny that the Vatican would admit the existence of UFO's now.

NORSEMAN: The Vatican, in previous times they killed people because of other ideas, burned books and such

SPOT: I am not surprised that they would want to be the first to admit it.

SPOT: The article also mentioned MJ-12.

WAFFLE: I think they are scared of the real service-minded people. Free thinkers.

WAFFLE: I have been reading the list lately just haven't had much to post. I think it's a good concentration of people with good ideas.

NORSEMAN: Yup, good.

NORSEMAN: And we have the police :)

SPOT: I am getting ready to plant seeds. I bought a new roto-tiller and am building a small green house. We are putting in two gardens this year as well.

WAFFLE: Oh, I need to ask an important question but its not really about 'solutions'.

SPOT: Go for it.

NORSEMAN: Yup go for it.

WAFFLE: Has anyone else had lucid-dreams where everything seems real, and there are people that are trying to keep you there? but you are in control and can end it? What does it mean? They put on 'masks' of ambiguous people, and they show me technology and shit, like real amazing stuff to try to make me stay IN the dream? I think they are bad.

SPOT: I still have problems controlling my dreams.

WAFFLE: Is this something within me or is it external. It feels external, but the psychologist insists it's all in my head.

SPOT: You may be right. Glad you can control them.

WAFFLE: I've been able to close the dreams sometimes. But they are real good at coercing you to stay there.

SPOT: Most psychologists will tell you that.

WAFFLE: They are so good, they pick out the perfect things, it seems so impossible, it has to be external from myself.

SPOT: If they didn't say it was in your head, they would not be working.

NORSEMAN: Well I had sometimes kinda 'thoughts' about people, and then it seems someone stopped me from thinking about it, 'like not for you to know'

WAFFLE: Well, also a lot of times I feel compelled to go to sleep like in the middle of the day, and I have a lucid-dream then wake up again.. Like something made me tired.

NORSEMAN: Isn't it an OBE experience you have?

WAFFLE: The whole thing scares me.

SPOT: It could be. I have had many dreams about disasters and I also had dreams at the same time as others. I dreamt with my wife and with Babe before. We had the same dreams at the same time.

NORSEMAN: But what is a dream. It even can be telepathic thoughts that your mind converts as being a dream.

WAFFLE: Well, it's like I'm taken to a place, where I can't see anyone but I know there are beings there. Then I am tested for things. Like morality. Then I am tempted with technology to keep me there. It's all the same.

WAFFLE: It's extremely realistic, like I'm really there. AND

NORSEMAN: Guess you are there, maybe a preparation for the future.

SPOT: Do you keep a dream diary?

WAFFLE: If I take control and exit the dream, I am groggy all day. If I let it finish, I am fine. AS IF, er, somewhat. In the dreams it's all mental communication.

SPOT: Keep controlling your dream and maybe I'll see you sometime.

NORSEMAN: Guess you know what it is about.

WAFFLE: It's almost like if I exit the dream, 'they' don't have time to 'fix' me before I wake up, so I'm tired.

NORSEMAN: Try to listen to your intuition what does it tell you about the dream.

WAFFLE: See me sometime?

SPOT: Humans have meetings all the time to discuss situations about the coming earth changes.

WAFFLE: It tells me that something is trying to keep me there for some reason. It could be bad guys trying to control me, or it could be good guys that have to keep me there for physical test or something. It SEEMS like they are bad because some of the figures are overbearing people I knew, etc. But there are others there always, watching but I can't see them.

SPOT: As long as you are in control, you have the advantage.

WAFFLE: Its like a big game, and scares the shit out of me otherwise I wouldn't bring it up like this. Thanks for the feedback.

NORSEMAN: No thanks..:)

SPOT: It does scare you. That is why the ET's can't just come on down and visit us. It would scare the heck out of humans. They HAVE to talk to us in our subconscious mind.

WAFFLE: So do you think I'm in meeting with other humans? What can I do in the dream to get away from the bad and join the good?

SPOT: At least for now.

WAFFLE: So maybe they aren't bad, I might seem self-centered sometimes, but my subconscious reaction to any situation is ALWAYS service.

SPOT: If they are bad, they WANT to scare you. Ask them questions like "Why am I here?"

NORSEMAN: So I think there is no reason why you will contact the bad ones.

SPOT: Yep, you as the human have the power to "just say no".

NORSEMAN: Right, ask them.

WAFFLE: Maybe they know I'm easily scared so they have to make it convincing. I'll try to ask somehow. Maybe I have already in the dreams which is why I rarely leave the dreams.

WAFFLE: It makes a little more sense, I'm glad to be able to talk to other people that understand..:) Understanding is so hard to come by sometimes.

SPOT: You are fine. If you're nuts, we all are :-)



WAFFLE: Are most of you prone to NOT getting sick at all? I never ever get sick, just wondering.

NORSEMAN: Well I sometimes got sick. have some problems with certain kind of foods. But I almost never had headaches, an occasional stitch but.

SPOT: I don't get sick much anymore. Once a year maybe. That is probably just to build my immune system.

NORSEMAN: Guess I only threw up a few times. The last time was more then 10 years ago if I remember it right.

WAFFLE: Yeah, I mean I've gotten sick but far less than normal. the last time I was sick at all was in 1994, and it lasted 3 hours. (I drank a glass of milk intuitively because I knew it would make me throw up, and all better!) :)

SPOT: Only last a day or two


SPOT: Cool

WAFFLE: Just wondering, if some of us share the same traits etc..

NORSEMAN: Guess 'they' boosted our immune system. Don't know.

SPOT: I bet we have more in common than we may think.

WAFFLE: It would seem so, at least hard to prove something like that.


SPOT: Yea, no real reason to prove it. The proofs in the pudding so to speak.

WAFFLE: We all tell bad jokes. Spot just has the super-improves bad joke gene though

SPOT: Hehehehe...

NORSEMAN: heheheh

NORSEMAN: I feel sorry for you ;)

SPOT: They say it's in the jeans, wait, that's in the genes.


WAFFLE: I have dreams where there are other people you can't see, but there is always 1 prominent ambiguous figure that guides me through.

WAFFLE: He/she wears a mask of someone I know/knew, but not someone I know personally.

BABE: I see, are you dreaming in the first person, or third?

WAFFLE: And when I try to leave they show me some technology or get me interested in something intellectually stimulating. First person.

BABE: So this person that is masked, could be your guide, disguised as someone you trust.

WAFFLE: But it's usually someone I don't trust.

BABE: Sounds like a test

WAFFLE: Like someone authoritative, but not mean, a 'leader' type. Yeah, moral tests also, sometimes. Well, a lot of times, sort of.

BABE: You are meant to listen to this person, are you shown tech from scrolls or papers, or holographs?

WAFFLE: Holographs, sort of.

BABE: Linear plane, or astral?

WAFFLE: Of just something mental, like virtual reality but usually like I'm given the ability to play with something in my head.

WAFFLE: Huh? Oh, it's lucid - like it's real down to the minute detail.

BABE: When you dream of these things, are you on a different plane of existence?

WAFFLE: Mostly, but that gets clouded by other things too.

SPOT: He is new at the dream thing Babe


WAFFLE: I refuse to believe its all in my head, because it's so sneaky and external.

BABE: OK - is that area that you are in white, with a table, with papers on that table, sometimes robed figures are there?

NORSEMAN: It's not in your head. It only seems that way I think.

WAFFLE: Yeah. It's like I'm more intelligent or something larger than on Earth. No papers, just groups, no robes, just an awareness that beings are there. Like hiding in the shadows, with the one prominent figure leading me around, basically.

BABE: Do you remember what you are shown when you wake up?

WAFFLE: I remember the visuals usually, but not the reason.

BABE: OK, start writing everything down as soon as you wake up. You are meant to remember this.

WAFFLE: And the masks put on the prominent figure are very wisely chosen to keep me there.

SPOT: Yep, the dream diary.

WAFFLE: I have, sometimes when they happen.. They are all VERY similar.

NORSEMAN: I don't have a dream diary. I don't seem to dream that much.

BABE: Good, that is normal, you are shown the same things, in different perspectives.

WAFFLE: Its scary because I don't know whether to trust those in the dream like I usually do, or to make them go away. I made them go away by choice only once or twice.

BABE: What have you seen in these tech dreams?

WAFFLE: And if I make them go away, I am groggy all day, as if they didn't get the chance to 'fix' me up before returning me to my awake state.

BABE: You are groggy because a part of you is still with them. It is possible to be taught while awake.

WAFFLE: Very stimulating 'toys', extremely interesting. I get to play with things and do want to quit because it's so much fun.

BABE: Are they toys to you, or learning tools?

WAFFLE: Like I was shown a real cool 'vehicle' of some sort, like a car with gadgets inside to play with.

NORSEMAN: I think it stimulates your brain activity and such.

SPOT: Hey! My taxi! :-)

BABE: :)

WAFFLE: Well, at first I was like "Wow, cool, let's play" but lately I've been ignoring the toys more.

BABE: Don't ignore them, they will be useful

NORSEMAN: Yep. I think that Babe is right about that. You learn something from 'playing with these toys' Maybe something that you could need.

BABE: Are you told of what kind of material these things are made of?

WAFFLE: I was shown a 'video game' of extreme detail and holographic nature, and I stayed long enough to glance but I didn't go over to use it. I didn't trust them, so I ended the dream. Or that part anyway.

BABE: What kind of feelings do you get when you feel that you shouldn't' trust them?

WAFFLE: I'm never told anything, they only give me an indication mentally that something's there, so I notice it. Then they leave the rest to me.

NORSEMAN: Maybe because in some way you know what to do with 'those'

WAFFLE: I don't know, I'm never afraid, really. There were some dreams at first where I was afraid but they weren't the same. It's usually a lot of fun, actually.

BABE: What is going on here, is that you are being taught. you are meant to also teach yourself on your own time.

WAFFLE: Taught what?

BABE: Start studying physics and linear math. Only you know what you are being taught.

WAFFLE: So I should 'play' with the things they show me without being wary of them you think?

SPOT: Maybe to be a teacher or a leader in the coming Awakening.

BABE: Yes, play with them, analyze them. the untrusting feelings that you get will go away the more you learn.

WAFFLE: So they aren't bad? I was afraid that since the masks were of authoritative people that they might be trying to control me.

BABE: And also, the more you learn, the more you will know what is good and bad. It is not a control thing, it is an authoritative thing, you must be a very independent person.

WAFFLE:OK, so if they were really out to control me maybe it would be fear-based? Because I'm never really afraid or anything.

SPOT: I get the feeling of a displacement, someone that has backed up in density. Things are already known to him but he needs to remember it.

NORSEMAN: A Star Child you mean?

WAFFLE: I do feel that way a lot. Like I've gotten real relaxed, and I've felt like for a moment I knew it ALL - then it was snatched away.

NORSEMAN: Maybe the guide he sees is Waffle himself.

SPOT: Yes, possibly Norse.

NORSEMAN: Back to remembrance.

WAFFLE: Like while being awake, not a dream. While listening to music real relaxed.

BABE: Norseman - you hit it.

SPOT: That's deep Norse, but maybe.

NORSEMAN: I already had this thought, but didn't mention it yet. But what does Waffle thinks about this?

BABE: Excellent though:)

WAFFLE: Why would I have been so confused then, I am always confused, I don't understand the way anything is it makes no sense.

BABE: Like I said, write everything down, no matter how minuet it may seem.

WAFFLE: Like in school I never understood the people, they were all so immature and "jokey". I don't get jokes, not like Spot's jokes but like "make fun" jokes. It's so vain.

NORSEMAN: Maybe you're trying to reach the 'knowledge' you have.

SPOT: You are not where you belong. A step down for a good purpose. Now is the time to re-learn what you already know.

BABE: If you are your own teacher - then only person that can make you understand this - is you.

WAFFLE: OK I'll try to do that.. I guess I'll get a notebook and sleep with it in bed, so I can't have any excuse not to write it down.

BABE: Good:)

BABE: How old are you?

WAFFLE: It makes more sense now, thanks a lot. I don't want to hog the discussion about me though, we can talk about other stuff too.

SPOT: 24


SPOT: Close

SPOT: The way I see it Waffle, your psychologist is nuts and you should help him with his denial.

BABE: You got it. Silly puppy spot:).

VIOLA: So guys, I got the seeds and sorted them out. I have to tell you, The Arc is VERY GENEROUS with the seeds. Hundreds, in most cases, and all looking very viable!

AZIMUTH: Viola, are you paying for the seeds?

SPOT: Good. I have my new tiller and am building a greenhouse already

VIOLA: I told everyone to hold back half they get, if they can't get others to help them grow seed, as I can't imagine all those seeds getting into the ground with a space to grow unless someone literally has a field!

BABE: I can't do any of that until I move :(

VIOLA: Yes, I paid about $300 for the double dose, and we have 18 participants in the Seed TEAM program. It's a good jump start, and I'm putting before the Inc. Board this month a proposal to fund the Seed TEAM distribution, postage.

SPOT: My neighbor and I are working together on the seed thingy.

AZIMUTH: Viola, can I pay for my seed package?


SPOT: I am going to pay Viola back for what I get.

VIOLA: In the fall, or whenever the growing season ends in a location, the seeds grown should be send to distribution centers, which we're trying to line up now.

VIOLA: Those with storage room, and the time to sort out and label the seeds.

VIOLA: Then their postage charges, or the postage from any participant, will be reimbursed by the Inc. fund.


SPOT: Yep. I hope to have MANY seeds to send out

VIOLA: Spot, you know that guy that gave $100, I'm going to propose that we ear mark this for the Seed Distribution expenses.

SPOT: My thoughts exactly

AZIMUTH: It's a pity my garden is small but I am very glad I have a garden.

VIOLA: Listen guys, if you want to pay me back for the seeds, just make a contribution to the Inc. and ear mark it for the Seed Distribution project, which I anticipate the Board would approve.

SPOT: That's a good idea.


VIOLA: This is such a good thing, feels so solid. And we need to multiply those seeds a thousand fold as the weather is going to really get people hungry and interested SOON, I suspect. PO Box 72350, Fairbanks, Alaska 99707 USA. In care of Troubled Times Inc. Or the USDA will.

VIOLA: Azimuth, you know there are some just growing seeds in a pot on the porch, if they live in a condo or some such. This works! Many small spaces is just as good as a single huge field. In fact, many participants insures that a wipe-out of the crop will not devastate the efforts.

VIOLA: In the computer field, we call that off-site backup of the data :-)

SPOT: Very good Viola :-)

VIOLA: Some Seed TEAM participants will not have good luck with this or that, and some will have fabulous luck!

AZIMUTH: Viola, indeed. And furthermore pots are portable =)

VIOLA: I foresee that we will specialize to some degree, where those who find their locale, their sun and shade or rain frequency or soil type, whatever, grows this or that extremely well.

VIOLA: Then they can specialize in those seeds, and we will be more efficient.

GYPSY: Yes, I have hand-built boxes for my gardens.

VIOLA: So, the 1997 XF11 asteroid thing, it turns out that 1. XF11 is NOT the next asteroid to come close, so why did they make a big deal out of it? 2. got media coverage as coming very close to the earth, when this was incorrect, quickly corrected by Marsden, 3. is located right now right in the area where the 12th Planet it, between Orion and Gemini! So it's pretty clear to me that they were trying to get lots of folks excited about XF11, go LOOK in that part of the sky, and find the 12th!

SPOT: I have my hydro shed I am still working to set up. I am building the greenhouse on the roof of it. Doubling the space.

NORSEMAN: Finally they are doing a good thing, pointing people in the right direction of the sky.

VIOLA: Also, Jim Scotti started debating the Zetas right away on sci.astro, instead of waiting months before starting. This gives them credibility on sci.astro, as he doesn't engage anyone else in this manner.

SPOT: I have red cellophane on the lenses of my binoculars. I am using that to search for the 12th

WAFFLE: they could also want amateurs with weak telescopes to point that way and see nothing, since for now maybe their telescopes aren't strong enough? Or is that being paranoid?

GYPSY: So this is a good thing.

VIOLA: I took a look at the graph that Atom worked up from the deep quake statistics, and the jump upward since 1994 is almost a straight line UP! It had a steady rise from the mid 70's or so, but early in this decade started really to go nuts!

BABE: The 12th right now is still hard to see.

WAFFLE: Well I guess that eventually someone looking that way would find it so I guess that's wrong. I'm just thinking short-term though.

SOJOURNER: Viola, how hard do you think it is to spot 12th, now knowing what to search for and where?

NORSEMAN: I think it's easy, if you know where to look :)

WAFFLE: I think the temperature and weather here has been hotter and weirder than ever before, this winter was more like fall most of the time.

AZIMUTH: Viola, what is the estimated distance now between the sun and the 12th?

GYPSY: Spot, you might want to look into the infra red lenses at a camera shop.

WAFFLE: I don't remember that happening, either.

VIOLA: Waffle, they asked for everyone in the world to check their images and report, to see if the path of XF11 was as they thought. Now one astronomer DID do that, and that's why Marsden changed his estimate of how close XF11 could come, the asteroid.


VIOLA: So, they were definitely ENCOURAGING everyone to look, and asking folks to check their images.

SOJOURNER: Viola, I know Atom did some photographing the other day.

WAFFLE: Well I was being a devil's advocate, that's all. I haven't been keeping up with matters lately, because of other things.


SPOT: Yes Gypsy, but I want to find it in a way that ANYONE can use and see the same thing.

VIOLA: Now, given that the 12th is most identified by its MOTION, which is slight, differentiating this from a fading nova, for instance, asking for image comparisons to the past is VERY significant! They want folks to "find" the 12th!


WAFFLE: We had planned on buying a telescope soon, since it's relatively dark in this area compared to most of the city. If we do buy a telescope that's good enough sometime I'll be looking too :)

SPOT: And they will find it soon.

VIOLA: Azimuth, the 12th is still out beyond Pluto, etc., no reflected light as yet. It won't reflect light until the last 6 months. And it goes through the Solar System in 3 short months, so it must be quite a ways out there.

SOJOURNER: Viola, are this past pictures somehow publicly accessible?

VIOLA: Spot, you're supposed to filter FOR red, does a red plastic on your binoculars do that? Won't that just make everything look red, whether it is or not?

WAFFLE: Oh, so it'll pass through like a bullet, like REAL fast then.. I didn't catch that before.

VIOLA: Sojourner, you and Atom are such ROCKS! (As in Rock of Gibraltar)

WAFFLE: Yeah, you want all the colors BUT read.

SPOT: Not sure, I am still experimenting.


BABE: Use a blue filter dear.

AZIMUTH: You could also instead of buying one go to an amateur astronomer/observatory and ask if you might use the equipment to search. They will find the purpose of your motivation fascinating and may let you only for that reason alone use the stuff.

SOJOURNER: Azimuth, this could be true!

SPOT: Blue huh?

WAFFLE: Maybe green

VIOLA: Sojourner, no, these images are in the hands of observatories, very few have the imaging capability, but I think maybe some well outfitted astronomers could have this capability. It is computer image capture, not sure what the cost is but most amateurs most definitely would not have it.

BABE: It'll show up dark purple.

WAFFLE: CCDs? the silicon sensitive camera thingies?

SPOT: Cool, I must get new cellophane then.

VIOLA: Red filter can mean 1. filter OUT red or 2. filter FOR red. Make sure you're doing the latter.

SOJOURNER: Waffle, yes CCDs

VIOLA: Waffle, not sure of the name of technical description at all. Just quoted the Zetas.

NORSEMAN: I think filter for red.

SOJOURNER: Viola, so if I would contact an astronomer at our national observatory and ask him to do something - what should this something be?

VIOLA: I find it a validation that I felt for 6 months that something would happen in February, and that it most likely would be that someone would spot the 12th, and this happened. It was March 13th, not February, and it wasn't spotting the 12th but pointing in that direction, etc.. but this is pretty close!

BABE: Most observatories at local high schools will LET you make an appointment to use their telescope. Just tell them where you want to look, and they will hook you up.

GYPSY: Yes, it is, Viola.

SPOT: Good idea Babe.

BABE: I did that when the comet crashed into Jupiter.

VIOLA: Sojourner, check out the Rogue Planet TOPIC /theword/tword032.htm and look at the Path, the RA and Dec for December 1997, the red filtering suggestions, the magnitude suggestions (search for down to Mag 10, etc.) and that should guide you.

VIOLA: Babe, you have excellent instincts and a good track record, so tell me your hunches NOW. You were feeling April, right? Any more details?

NORSEMAN: And even near the village I live is a observatory, if I am right, only don't know if it can used by folks like me.

SOJOURNER: Viola, I will TRY to contact someone. At least, his/her reaction will be interesting!

NORSEMAN: Babe: you feel that something more will happen?

BABE: OK Viola, March was the worst! April, we'll see more UFO flaps, more people are going to come forward, all you coastal people, be careful.

VIOLA: She wasn't the only one who felt this spring would be momentous, but I think I was the only one saying as early as February, etc., and being specific.

NORSEMAN: Anything about Europe, Babe?

BABE: The weather is going to get worse before it gets better, but I think by June, it should even out.

VIOLA: Coastal? As in quakes? I've been sensing this too, as has Spot, that the West Coast has been too quiet. This means that there is no jiggle room, and a big break will happen, that the plates are tight against each other.

BABE: Europe - look for danger that will come out of China, as for where you are, Norseman, you are safe there.

VIOLA: Meanwhile, Mammoth Lake keeps heating up, and up through the whole Sierras, actually, even into Yellowstone's caldera.

BABE: Viola, there has been a rise in quakes, and the sea floor in the pacific is rising

SOJOURNER: Babe, out of China?

NORSEMAN: Okay. thanks, Babe

BABE: Also, Crater Lake is rising. Yes China

SPOT: Or bubbling

GYPSY: Apparently, ALL the rivers are rising here, too.

VIOLA: What's this about China? What?

BABE: Also, this bugs me, but there is supposed to be volcanic activity in Wyoming

GYPSY: Yes, in Wyoming near Yellowstone

BABE: Everyone is so worried about Iraq, Hussein is NOT the man behind this.

BABE: In China, somewhere, there will be a threat

SPOT: I made a graph for the Nenana Ice Classic trying to guess the time the ice will go out this year. It starts from 1917. The trend in a definite warming trend since 1917.

VIOLA: I have a feeling the West Coast is going to get very jumbled, to the extent that employers will go belly up, people without jobs, and no compensation from insurance companies either. The State of California is taking over quake insurance, but it's not adequate. They will probably be bailed out by the US, who will just print more money for the crisis, pay for it that way, as usual.

BABE: All that I know, is that things are going to get worse, before they get better

NORSEMAN: Just signs of the times that come, the war of good and evil

VIOLA: Bambina, you mean that Iraq is generated crisis so that war can be a distraction? I'm nervous about the Anthrax vaccines, and sending our guys over that on flimsy excuses.

BABE: Yup Viola, Hussein is not the psycho that we thing he is. He is acting under orders. Think. Just like Hitler.

BABE: There will not be an epidemic caused by diseases.

VIOLA: You know, George Bush created that Iraq nightmare, gave the guy guns and money and whatever, and then turned around and make a crisis out of it for Oil interests. Bush is a real honey, was at the helm of the CIA when they started running drugs into the US like no tomorrow. The US uses MOST illegal drugs, with only 6% of the population.

WAFFLE: I've kinda had the feeling the shit's going to hit the fan real soon, dunno why. I've been reluctant to do very much lately, just kinda depressed by it all. Yeah, and the Pope.

BABE: The pope KNOWS. Everything

WAFFLE: The idea that prominent figures are just scapegoats is extremely logical.

VIOLA: Waffle, take a leap and state your hunches. What shit?

WAFFLE: The Zeta idea, I mean. Like just things getting crazier and crazier, in the cities, etc. Like mini-wars or something.

VIOLA: Bambina, no epidemic? We're having a lot of diseases increase and show up again, natural when the weather gets weird and nutrition is down, poor - like tuberculosis, etc.,

WAFFLE: Or riots, just the hate building and building until it snaps

NORSEMAN: Waffle: ask yourself questions about your hunches, that helps.

BABE: There will be a rise, due to food shortages that will happen this year, but no big epidemics.

SPOT: Even on the local levels in state government, I have noticed a trend for more control of the populace.

GYPSY: Waffle, I have been having a lot of rioting in my dreams

VIOLA: For sure the Pope knows, else why rent the Arizona scope with infrared capability! I have no sympathy for the Pope and his, as they are such control freaks and live in golden glory, taking money from desperately poor folks to do so.

BABE: Exactly Viola.


WAFFLE: Basically, most people are just like "whatever" and don't care much. I think it's going to hit the fan soon. People know how to be "hay, that's cooooool, pass the joint" but they don't take anything seriously at all.

WAFFLE: At least people my age.

NORSEMAN: Right about that Viola.

BABE: The Pope is telling his people that wormwood IS happening.

VIOLA: Did you guys note the posting in tt-forum, that an Italian Bishop or whatever had stated repeatedly that alien visitations are real, not demonic?

WAFFLE: Viola: I was on #Catholic, and MAN, they are NUTS.

BABE: I didn't get that yet, but it is about time.

WAFFLE: They were nice to answer my questions, but they insisted that hierarchy was necessary for everything.

SPOT: Yes, I read that and passed it on.


VIOLA: Waffle, you mean that report is correct? Not Nuts? And that the Catholic folks are going nuts?

BABE: The Catholics are going to go by everything that the Pope says, no matter how mundane it may sound

VIOLA: Spot, I see this need for control too, but it has not manifested itself yet, in my opinion.

GYPSY: Viola, the Catholic folks are being spoon-fed the "truth"

BABE: I was raised to NEVER question a priest.

WAFFLE: No, I just mean in general. I proposed to them the idea of "round-table" society and gave proof of it working better, but they insist on hierarchy and control.

VIOLA: We put up a new TOPIC this past month, Internment Camps, showing the basis of these rumors. Many, it gets a big scary!

BABE: I've received mail on that

WAFFLE: It's SCARY. and around these parts the Catholic influence and religious influence is so HUGE. you can't get a word in, and they back up their lies with illogic

GYPSY: Waffle, they always have!

BABE: Waffle, I'm Catholic, practicing. but I don't always believe what I'm told unless there is a backing for it.

VIOLA: What do you supposed they are planning on doing with those camps? Dealing with panic after serious disasters? Keeping rogue military in line until Court Martials can take place? Dealing with hordes of Mexicans coming north during a LA disaster?

SPOT: The control will start on local levels and fan out. Starting with the social workers (my opinion).

NORSEMAN: Yup, but it's not only the Roman Catholic church, others do it to I think.

BABE: The camps - according to what they want us to know, are "safe areas" after a crisis.

VIOLA: Lovely! Go there and if you don't agree to work, then into the shackles with you!

GYPSY: Has anyone here heard about what the government is doing in buying up all the unused railroad cars?

BABE: But if that is the case, then why did the government buy shackles and why are they re-building the old Lowell AFB in Colorado? And why are they buying more land there and putting up barbed wire? No, Gypsy, but I can find out.

SPOT: I threw a social worker out of my office the other day and told him he was more of a threat than some kid is.

NORSEMAN: It's all US, I don't hear about such things in my country.

BABE: Be aware folks, they are getting ready for the one world government thing, and the US wants to be on top.

VIOLA: Try to imagine a military unit if communications are cut off and no food in the kitchen. What would those officers DO? I think there will be a lot of going rogue, with General's putting themselves up as Kings. They will think they are doing the right thing, keeping order, of course, but it will be dictatorships with all that goes bad in those cases, for sure.


VIOLA: I'd not be near a military enclave, no way!

BABE: But like I said, it is going to be a battle between the US and China for domination.

NORSEMAN: But the future can still change Babe, or wouldn't it?

VIOLA: To make a move like NWO, martial law, there would have to be general agreement of the people. I don't think that would pull off until the last week, until rotation stops. Then all bets are off anyway.

BABE: Yes Norseman, this all changeable.

WAFFLE: I think both are being taken over by the same power or something.

GYPSY: Babe, you can find out?

BABE: There is one man, that is it, one man that is going to come out on top and run the show.

VIOLA: China? China may have population, but they are Soooooo far behind technologically! I don't see that.

BABE: Yes, Gypsy.

WAFFLE: We have a LOT of china products etc. maybe it's all becoming the same country, in a lot of ways we are communist under the disguise of democracy anyhow.

SPOT: The US flag with gold trim IS a military flag. When you are in a courtroom with that flag, you are in a Kings court.

BABE: Not really Viola, it is this one man, he actually runs half of Asia from his house.

VIOLA: Babe, Antichrist? I don't think this will happen, and in fact I think that argument, pulling apart will occur.

BABE: Some think he IS the antichrist Viola, yes.

VIOLA: I foresee bank failure, and stock market crashes BIG time happening, soon.

GYPSY: One man can only wield that kind of power if the population agrees with him

NORSEMAN: Babe: there are more Antichrists. It's not one person.

BABE: He has a Big influence. It's scary, because he is only 33.

VIOLA: The stock market is so hyperinflated, and with crop shortages, quakes increasing, the whole house of cards can start to go down.

BABE: One man can make many men Norseman.

VIOLA: The wealthy and powerful will have more on their hands soon, many distractions.

BABE: I agree.

VIOLA: During the Great Depression, many industries, such as IBM, got their start. Folks gardened for themselves, etc. Might not be all bad! Good preparation for 2003.

NORSEMAN: Babe: I also listen and read other sources. I know someone who is a Star Child.

BABE: Ya'll know that the best way to strengthen a fallen country's economy is to go to war. Who is going to start it? and it won't happen until after the pole shift

SPOT: As long as you keep your locations to yourself.

VIOLA: Babe, what country will be around after the pole shift? They won't even have fuel for their planes, and an army runs on its stomach.

NORSEMAN: Right Spot

GYPSY: Viola, yes, I sense that the monetary system is the first to collapse. Then followed by rioting caused by lack. This is why it is so important to get yourselves set up AWAY from a metropolis!

BABE: Dunno Viola, I can't see past the pole shift.

VIOLA: I think every soldier will worry about his or her family, and if the commanders can't reassure them that they are OK, which they CANNOT, they will go AWOL and it will fall apart.

VIOLA: Look what happened in Egypt, during the last, Jewish Exodus. This is not speculation, it's history.

BABE: Yup, everything will go to pieces, and then we are going to look to someone, anyone to leadership, but who?

SPOT: I can't get much farther away:-)

VIOLA: The Egyptian army was in disarray, and could not go after escaping slaves for some days. Old women walked away, etc., all safe.

VIOLA: Military will not hold together, except in spots, and there mutiny will be the norm, I think.

WAFFLE: People are so used to leadership

BABE: Yup, we are programmed to look to someone to take care of us. But that is going to have to change

GYPSY: Yes, Waffle, they are.

NORSEMAN: That's right Waffle

BABE: This is what pisses me off

VIOLA: Gypsy, the seeds are in the mail to you!

GYPSY: Wonderful!

GYPSY: I will be watching for them...

VIOLA: Spot, freezing doesn't hurt! In fact, Geri recommends keeping them in the freezer if you can't plant all in one year.

GYPSY: Yes, cold will not harm the seeds.

VIOLA: Some seeds even need a freeze to allow them to germinate. They are structured to grow only after a winter, etc.

SPOT: Hmmm, Okay. Just trying to protect them.

NORSEMAN: I am not in the seed team, need space and such.

SPOT: Make space.

GYPSY: My space is 2'X 2' wooden boxes at the moment.

GYPSY: Heh, I have acreage, but it is all rocks.

VIOLA: We need to figure out other means to demonstrate solutions, that there ARE THINGS folks can do! For instance, that guy drying LED lights and indoor growing, experimenting with this, Steve. MARVELOUS sense of purpose and mission, a true leaders!

BABE: I have to move somewhere safer before I can do that

SPOT: Doors open Babe.

BABE: :)

GYPSY: Babe, I have lots of space.

VIOLA: Since earthworms are so easy to keep, and 82% protein, I'd like to see some folks incorporate them into the diet, report on this.

VIOLA: Folks take this as a joke now, not serious, but this is a VERY VIABLE solution set!

SPOT: I would have to order worms to do that. Not a real worm in sight around here.

BABE: Thanks all :-)

NORSEMAN: Spot: :)

VIOLA: Spot, want me to send you some?

GYPSY: We have cultures on this planet that already incorporate many things that some of us would think distasteful

VIOLA: Spot, Vital Earth would send you some too, I'm sure :-)

BABE: I am terrible at growing things. I swear that I can kill silk roses :)

NORSEMAN: Gypsy: that's right.


VIOLA: Babe, each serves in his way :-)

GYPSY: I have been experimenting with different ways to sprout seeds.

SPOT: Yes, real worms.

BABE: Viola, what about the sea population? is that going to diminish after the pole shift? somehow I don't think it will.

NORSEMAN: Make a picture of you eating a worm Spot, scan it and put it on the www ;)

GYPSY: I have lined my boxes with plastic and poured in a shallow layer of water.

BABE: Yuck!

VIOLA: I know sprouts are tasty, and a quick food, but they take SEED to sprout, and how to get the seeds in the Aftertime? Seeds in the Aftertime most likely be planted, not eaten.

GYPSY: Cover the water with floating sod and set the seeds right on top

VIOLA: Oh! You mean for planting! Giving them a head start and not just putting seed in the ground, yes!

GYPSY: I make a little "umbrella" out of black plastic and set a lamp under it.

BABE: For some, ground planting is going to be rough.

SPOT: I will Norse:-)

VIOLA: They're not eaten RAW! You squish them through a wringer first, after purging them, and then dry and powder them.

GYPSY: Babe, exactly.

VIOLA: I don't think I could eat something that was wriggling either, not without great mental discipline.

SPOT: I also have eight baby chicks in my apartment :-) Starting a chicken crop for crap. :-)

VIOLA: Yes, starter pots, putting the little starter squares in the ground instead, MUCH more efficient! More seed makes it that way.

GYPSY: Yes, and when the seed sprouts in the sod, it has all the nutrients it needs to start off a healthy plant

VIOLA: Spot, they're cute when they're little! Supposedly, per an article on our TT web site, even chicken breath helps plants to grow, nitrogen in the breath.

WAFFLE: Maybe I'll dig up some earthworms somewhere and make something tasty from it. I dunno :(

GYPSY: And the light heats it up, also creating moisture from the air under the black plastic.

WAFFLE: Has anyone else done that yet?

VIOLA: A very good synergy, chickens in the indoor gardens.

GYPSY: Which means very little care for the gardener.


SPOT: I am buying a supply of those little pots to put away for the future.

NORSEMAN: Good idea.

VIOLA: Waffle, yes, Longbow has, was in a group that experimented with eating worms. He made cookies, and they ate them up, every one!

BABE: I'm thinking of just buying a potters' wheel and making my own stuff. there is tons of clay around here.

SPOT: Yep. Chicken breath. Smells like chicken :-)

BABE: Hehehehe



BABE: Leave it to spot to start a dramatic pause :)

VIOLA: I think the new rules on Police on the mailing lists has worked well! We've had a couple problems, mis-postings, and the Police force worked them out without one of those darn banning votecalls, etc.

SPOT: I tried rabbits, they are filthy animals.

GYPSY: Yes, I have rabbits.

VIOLA: Spot, but boy, do they eat vegetable trash! Nibble nibble nibble ..

GYPSY: And soon to have chickens, they are filthy, too.

WAFFLE: Perhaps I'll try it. Earthworms should be pretty available anyhow since they won't be that hurt by earthquakes I don't think

WAFFLE: "Dig a hole, make up a snack" could be the slogan :)

SPOT: One rabbit pellet buried with each seed?

VIOLA: At least rabbit turds are firm, chickens splotch and walk it in.

BABE: Yuck

VIOLA: Spot, not a bad idea! But they're tiny, maybe you need a handful or so. Well, a scoup full, not a handful :-)

GYPSY: Hehehe

VIOLA: Another thing about rabbits is that they are not noisy! Not a peep!

SPOT: Chicken crap is VERY strong and will burn up your plants if not used correctly

GYPSY: Spot, true!

VIOLA: Urine does the same, must be watered down, apparently.

SPOT: I have plenty after this winters "crop"

GYPSY: Chicken manure needs to be cut with sand and vermiculite

SPOT: Wasn't sure what to cut it with.

GYPSY: The sand absorbs some of the acidic residue, and the vermiculite spreads it out so as not to be so much at a time.

SPOT: Good idea.

GYPSY: You can also add a little bone meal and blood meal if you have access to it. That is what I do.

VIOLA: I'm really pleased to see how strong and large the group has gotten, as from now on out I think we're going to get busy.

NORSEMAN: Yep. really busy.

SPOT: Yep yep yep

GYPSY: Yeah, is the busy time of year coming up anyway, for those of us who grow our own meals.

NORSEMAN: Busier then we think we will be and maybe sooner then we think

VIOLA: I think the changes we made in the mailing lists will allow a lot of activity in a lot of places, without getting overwhelmed of chaotic.

GYPSY: I think it has already started to smooth out, Viola


AZIMUTH: Yes, most are saying the same every time. Soon it will be very busy. Just wait and see, as long as we are forehand ready for it ;)

GYPSY: You know, we had a fire here last month and now I see it as a blessing because it showed me just how unprepared I really am!

NORSEMAN: We are ready, sure about that.

VIOLA: If we got a whole bunch more talent, coming in, it has a lot of directions to grow in, so many of our TOPICS have only been defined but not fleshed out, and so many of our intractable problems so well vocalized, put forth, that there is not doubt that folks would find them. Like for instance, bulbs breaking, and how to gen enough power to grow indoor gardens with only 12 Volt, etc. If someone came into our TT web site, dug around, they would 1. know who to contact in their specialty area, 2. know what the outstanding problems are, 3. know which mailing list to join, 4. know how to package and post their solutions.

GYPSY: Just as a matter of reference, has anyone posted a list of who is getting what seeds and maybe where they are in the world?

VIOLA: If someone had $$ to contribute, there's the Inc., etc.

NORSEMAN: Right Viola

VIOLA: We have started TOPICs and groups to cover just about everything that could get a rush, I think.

SPOT: Even out houses

GYPSY: Yep, handy little buildings, those! Heh, I'd be lost without mine!


GYPSY: Besides, it is a good excuse to go outside at night and look at the heavens.

VIOLA: Gypsy, I'm going to add to the Seed TOPIC a lot of stuff this next month, but I don't want to list the participants or where they are located. When we get distribution contacts, THAT will be posted, but I think folks operate better in privacy. For one thing, we will get more volunteers that way, if they are assured of privacy. Who wants a flood of mail or crank calls! This is the fear, etc.

GYPSY: Yes, that makes sense, Viola

SPOT: And listing folks on some list is not safe.

GYPSY: I was just trying to think of a way to be in contact with the rest of the seed team and see how they are doing or if there was anything I could do to help them

GYPSY: .Hmm, maybe we could call a chat of different teams at different times. I'll think on that.

SPOT: I won't forget. I will ask if I have questions, you can count on it.

AZIMUTH: Viola will know how the seeds are doing as I guess it is the safest to forward any information on the progression to her or equivalent

GYPSY: Sounds good.