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icon 08-Mar-98

Note: it is a general Troubled Times policy to change the names of IRC participants to screen names and remove personal discussions that occurred during the chat in the interests of privacy.

WARMA: Viola said she wanted to discuss the model for growth. She felt that we're ahead of the curve.

NORSEMAN: Yes, that model. Good discussion I think. Some have to get used to the new list and the new policy and so on I think :)

WARMA: Any viewpoints on the new list model?

SOL: I have noticed a lull on the list. I wonder if others have been experiencing what I have. That is a rather crushing depression.

NORSEMAN: depression?

SHADOW: As far as I know, I haven't had any lull in the list

NORSEMAN: The new list model, people that are new on the group or didn't e-mailed to the group for sometime need to be informed in a good way I think.

SHADOW: Yes, that's right Norseman

NORSEMAN: Like last week or it was 2 weeks ago you Jan started about change on the web and it continued on the tt-focus but we didn't know that :)

VIOLA: I was going to suggest "Being on the Cusp of Change" as a good topic. We are moving through changes, mid-way, and some reactions are occurring.

WARMA: The Web Restructure discussion did not get anywhere really, my conclusion is that we need to have a revision, but not before we have TEAMs in place to do it.

VIOLA: Right. Right now we're gathering content, and actually identifying as we go what the real issues and concerns are! For instance, early on, the group focused on surviving the shift, period. We came up with various means, from limestone caves to trenches with metal roofs to metal containers on concrete boats on land. Now we scarcely ever talk about that, as we HAVE a number of solutions and have moved on to other issues. For instance, I consider the lighting problem very hot, and relatively unsolved! To grow plants you need sunlight equivalent, and head lights and bike generators just won't do it! This is a hot issue!

WARMA: Have anybody built any of the proposed shelters yet? Anybody getting in trouble with local government when wanting to build a dome?

NEMESIS: Hydroponics?

VIOLA: But we're into collecting info in these areas, still, but at some point the TOPICs will be cluttered, rather than informative, and THEN we need to revamp them, one by one.

SHADOW: So far, the domes are going unnoticed by gov.

NORSEMAN: I didn't build any yet, we don't have much space where I live :)

AZIMUTH: We will not build domes in our country.

SHADOW: Here in the midwest the domes are unnoticed, but I figure they will soon take notice of them and then issues will start

AZIMUTH: We will have to move or drown.

VIOLA: I can see the web restructuring taking the form of combining what was said in many pages into a single page, and NOT giving all the e-mail contacts that we do. Today, we don't have a bank of folks ready to answer questions, and the authors will do so as the questions are in response to their words - pride of ownership.

WARMA: Laws are different in different countries. I suspect I would get problems in Scandinavia, as houses are supposed to look like houses, cottages to look like cottages etc.

AZIMUTH: Seriously? How problematic?

VIOLA: Later, I can see an edited page from many posts, with the contact being a general TEAM e-mail addy, one that many can answer and share the burden of answering. Kind of like a phone bank, only e-mail equivalent.

NEMESIS: I don't even want to consider the possibility of trying it in my country.

SHADOW: I know that the codes for domes are the same as houses though, so maybe nothing will stem from that

AZIMUTH: Is a good efficient way yes.

NORSEMAN: Good idea. Viola


SOL: If you build a dome say it is not a house. It is a barn. It is a warehouse.

WARMA: Viola, good idea. One TEAM per area, bringing together existing web content with new information and field tests

VIOLA: In the US, geodesic domes and concrete domes are OK in most states. I still think that the best approach is to have the building materials handy, and construct when the shift is past. This is best from many angles. 1) not one can find you before hand, 2) no arguing with the local codes, 3) less damage to your home due to the shift.

AZIMUTH: One TEAM per area, specialized, is a direction we will have to go into.

NORSEMAN: One team per area

WARMA: But it will still look like a dome, and the local government require drawings to issue a building permit.

VIOLA: Good idea! Just storing the ToyR Us or whatever!

SHADOW: That is true Viola. Afterwards is much better, but people should still look over plans of how to build them and all

AZIMUTH: Yes Viola, but how to make those domes in storms and continuous rains?

VIOLA: Warma, I think the restructuring will start this year, but be on a TOPIC by TOPIC basis. If you start restructuring when you're in the brain-storming mode, it may stop the process. And often we don't know what the issues are until loose discussion has been going on for a long time.

WARMA: Viola, I think it is a both. Relocate or buy an additional property, prepare one or more buildings for the pole shift, plus store building material for the after-pole shift

SHADOW: Be equipped totally for now and after.

VIOLA: Construction in rain is not so much a problem as what the Richter 9 earthquakes will do to the structure!

NORSEMAN: Right. :)

VIOLA: I'd put the equipment in a trench too, covered with a tin roof, and it won't be hard to get to after the shift.

SHADOW: That's right

EAGLE: It makes you afraid to build beforehand.

SOL: Yes, Warma. Another problem is that a certain number and size of windows are required by code if it is a dwelling. Windows to be avoided if you are building for strength. Best to find a location that has lax building codes, or codes not enforced.

VIOLA: As long as construction techniques don't require heavy construction equipment, etc., there should be 1) time to do it, 2) only impediment rain. What would rain hamper?

WARMA: Has anyone any experience with sliding base-isolation of buildings?

NORSEMAN: No experience.

SHADOW: But good hands on experience will help come after the destruction

VIOLA: I'm planning on building afterwards, but want to experiment with fish tanks in the mid-west before hand. I'm worried that the darm codes might give me a hassle on that!

VIOLA: Warma, sliding base? Here in San Francisco they quake proof by putting rollers under buildings. That what you mean?

SHADOW: Mid-west is pretty strict

WARMA: Viola, yes. I have some problem finding out how to get them

EAGLE: Minnesota has few building codes

SOL: An isolated foundation is expensive compared to the benefit, rigid construction with dampening much better.

VIOLA: So, regarding change, we can expect that Mike's model of Contacts, Web Editors, etc. will happen this year for sure.

NORSEMAN: Yes, I think so :)

AZIMUTH: What model is that?

NORSEMAN: Maybe the 'web' team model don't know.

VIOLA: I think it will also happen that the content will get too immense, and we will need web wrappers to work in certain areas also. Atom and Azimuth have talent in this area, I know.

AZIMUTH: It's only a question of time, I make the time.

VIOLA: For the dummies, what's an isolated foundation?

NORSEMAN: Yes, what is?

SOL: A foundation that allows either two or three degrees of freedom of movement.

AZIMUTH: That is very useful

SHADOW: I've heard of that

VIOLA: What's wrong with my concept that one builds after the shift? Even concrete does better with a little rain on it, as long as it's not continuously soaked, I guess.

SHADOW: I think your concept of building afterwards is far better than now

AZIMUTH: Well, that's hard to avoid, the soaking.

NORSEMAN: In fact it's better to build after than before.

VIOLA: Straw Bale homes, they get coated with sprayed on masonry and I guess if the bales were soaked they would rot.

WARMA: I am looking for such rollers or isolated foundation. Any information on where I can get more information is welcomed.

SHADOW: A little rain will not hurt nothing. You need water anyway for concrete.

AZIMUTH: Yes, it will take everybody's help of the group but it is better and safer.

SOL: Nothing is wrong with the idea of building after. It is actually essential for growth and should be planned for. Some construction will have to be done before though. A combination of both really.

VIOLA: Warma, I don't know any sources, but they sure as hell build those in San Francisco. They do this on existing brick buildings! How I don't know :-). Lift them up and tuck the rollers under? Got me!

WARMA: Building after the shift is OK for any additional buildings, community growth etc. But where would you store everything you want to use after the pole shift?

VIOLA: Sol, WHAT construction will have to be done before hand? In the northern hemisphere, it will be early summer. Unless you're in the polar zone, you don't really need existing housing going into it.

AZIMUTH: No construction before hand is needed.

SHADOW: I think the only thing that needs to be done before hand is just a small makeshift home safe enough until afterwards, be in on top or underground.

SOL: Warma typically the application calls for big ball bearings between two shaped steel plates anchored to the structure.

NEMESIS: Presumably a buried cache would be safe until after.

VIOLA: What about tents, go to the survival site area, put up a rain-proof tent, live in that until the shift starts happening, duck into the trenches covered by tin (well covered with sod so they won't blow away) and emerge an hour later to get to building!

NORSEMAN: Tents might be a good idea

BABE: But underground I don't think is a good idea.

WARMA: Viola, I will not relocate until the last day - my family is not that convinced yet. Therefore I have to acquire a survival site and prepare it for the after-time

EAGLE: Would it be advisable to store the building supplies in deep caves?

SHADOW: That's right, we talked about that awhile ago. That's what I plan to do. Won't take up much time either

AZIMUTH: Who will cover the tin with sod?

VIOLA: Storing stuff beforehand could be done in, for instance, barrel buildings, like 1/2 barrel cut down the middle and laid on side. In the first place, these are used for storage in farms and the military uses them extensively. You could also live in those temporarily, while building.

SHADOW: You have a way in and a way out of the trench.

AZIMUTH: Weak spots

VIOLA: Eagle, caves might collapse, but Erasmus has pointed out in earlier chats that limestone caves have obviously been around for many shifts. One takes their chances somewhat, and I think on the ground, just a trench covered by a metal roof, will not get one trapped under ground.

NORSEMAN: Weak spots?

VIOLA: Azimuth, YOU cover the tin with sod, a year or more ahead! Sod has roots that resist pulling apart, ever try to weed sod out of a garden (gak!)


NEMESIS: Depends how deep the trench is - sides collapsing in a deep trench can spoil your whole day

VIOLA: If a tin roof gets caught by the wind, off it will go and then you are exposed to the firestorms, should they happen (and this is rare but very scary), and also might get carried away in hurricane force winds!

BABE: I'm a little leery about even being on the ground in the US there is going to be a lot of new rifts and fault lines opening up, you have to be very careful where you dig.

NORSEMAN: that's right Babe

VIOLA: Shadow, the trenches should not be that long, and if the only cover is a tin roof and few inches of sod, then digging around the edges will work.

EAGLE: I'm concerned about the liquefaction of the soils.

NEMESIS: I have some plans for trench building if anyone is interested, military designs. Supposed to be for O.Ps can scan them and make them available.

WARMA: The most important thing is of course to find a safe spot, where you believe the geological changes will be modest.

VIOLA: Nemesis, I think of this trench as only about a couple feet deep, You crawl in, lay down during the shift which in any case is advised so you don't get thrown, and hug the person next to you :-). Mother and child, lovers, grandma with the babies, etc.

SHADOW: This is where the studying comes into play.

EAGLE: Sounds pretty cozy.

VIOLA: Nemesis, what's an O.P.? Are these trenches quake proof or just good for soldiers to hide in during war?

VIOLA: Warma, as always, location location location makes the difference :-)

SHADOW: You have to study on where you are at and where you're going

SOL: Viola, that depends on the model. Certainly shelter for storage of supplies and equipment. Shelter for people to suffice perhaps for weeks or months. You can build some things in rain, but it is difficult to build in high winds.

SHADOW: A trench wouldn't have any weak spots if constructed right

BABE: No, it wouldn't, but you don't know how far under your trench there will be a rift that could open up at any time

SHADOW: If your around rolling hills, that would deter most of the wind.

SHADOW: If you're meant to die, then you will no matter what you do. Think about it.

VIOLA: Eagle, you won't get dashed as you can't get thrown more than a couple inches!

SHADOW: A trench is the best I think until after things are over. No matter what is said here though, people are going to shelter themselves the best they know how. Me, the trench.

VIOLA: What do folks do in the midwest when tornadoes are expected? The storm shelter. In flat Kansas this is dug into the ground, and covered over with sod or a heavy wooden door at a slight angle to the flat earth. The stay snug, it blows over, then come out, etc.

SHADOW: That's right

NEMESIS: Observation Post, the manuals cover every kind of entrenchment from simple scrapes up to Command level bunkers capable of withstanding vast overpressure

SHADOW: The sides will not collapse if done right. Military does this all the time

VIOLA: Babe, that rift could open up anywhere! There is no where that will be safe from that.

WARMA: If you guys don't plan on relocating before the pole shift, then I believe trenches, caves and tents may be OK. But what about after-pole shift living until our friends join us?

NORSEMAN: Don't you have to know where the rifts are ? :)

BABE: I know where some of them are going to be.

WARMA: If you have to survive on what you got through the pole shift for maybe 10 years, you better build good storage sheds and shelters in advance.

SHADOW: Viola is right on that.

SOL: A monolithic concrete dome I believe can be built to withstand the forces of earthquakes and wind if a good location is selected. This could provide a base of operations for further construction and a safe place to pull into when things get hairy. A group of individuals with modest means could build such a structure before hand.

NEMESIS: That's correct Shadow but how many people know how to dig trenches correctly?

SHADOW: That's true.

VIOLA: Nemesis, sounds interesting! Does this include side-ways pressure, as happens during quakes? Its a back and forth, and sometimes up and down, but more back and forth I think, quakes are.

SHADOW: I learned from military people. Yes, back and forth Viola, that's right.

VIOLA: Warma, I think the tent won't do if cold weather is experienced due to geography change, or expected in a few months.

VIOLA: There is a lot of interest lately, in the US, in housing put together with odd-lot construction techniques. Straw Bale, tires with dirt, even tin cans piled high, adobe (earth baked) brick, etc.

WARMA: Viola, you are right. You guys may get it colder, whereas I may have to take my coat off.

VIOLA: The homeless use cardboard cartons, but this dissolves during rain, but nevertheless is an insulation - they stay warmer!

EAGLE: In this climate (northeast US) people have wintered in teepees, canvas and tree limbs

NEMESIS: Not sure exactly how quakes would affect them.

VIOLA: We need to think resourcefully! Right after the shift the goal should be to house folks comfortably, so they have elbow room, privacy, and can concentrate on the many problems and perhaps the many newcomers arriving in desperate circumstances.

WARMA: My point is: Prepare as good as possible. If you relocate, and have a property to sell, invest in your new property so that it may survive the pole shift (if you are lucky and in the right place)

VIOLA: Put the newcomers to work making housing, as often no skill set is required for something like straw bale.

SHADOW: One of my bosses built himself a dome home out of skids (pallets). Nice home.


SHADOW: You become very creative when you start getting cold or even thinking coldness.

VIOLA: After a couple years, depending upon many factors, BETTER housing can be planned!

NORSEMAN: Right, but not in the first time after the shift.

AZIMUTH:I looked at many sites of geodesic dome home builders, there are really some nice ones out there. And a lot too.

VIOLA: Eagle, good point! The American Indians lived in well below zero temps, in housing make from tree branches and skins, etc.

NEMESIS: Just skimming through the book, I'd need to spend some time reading to try and work out the protection level for a quake.

WARMA: An the Indians used buffalo skin to keep warm, right? Many buffaloes available today?

VIOLA: I think the problem with this housing discussion is that folks think of a HOUSE as having to be PERMANENT. The tents should be temporary, the trenches temporary, the first up housing after the shift temporary, and THEN permanent housing considered.

NEMESIS: Just as a matter of interest, being new, what's the rough demographics of this group?

VIOLA: If you call it temporary housing to last a few years until better housing can be constructed, like the "first homes" that newly-weds often buy, then you will get less resistance.

VIOLA: Warma, any substance that holds air, insulates, is a buffalo skin! The homeless use cardboard. It's actually quite warm! I recall from childhood, making huts in the cold Wisconsin climate. Very effective!

VIOLA: Nemesis, we're worldwide, truly. No common denominator.

NEMESIS: Nice to know

WARMA: Viola, what's wrong with trying to build for the after-pole shift now? My current house is all timber, very solid. If I build an all-timber cottage with rollers or sliding foundation on solid rock, don't you think it would have any chance of making it?

VIOLA: This chat does not have reps from Russia, India, South America, the Orient, or Australia today, but that is not always the case :-)

SPOT: I doubt that your cottage will make it Warma.

VIOLA: Warma, sure, but then you might have it taken away from you, for one thing, when survivors start to rove around. And it would surely sustain some damage from wind if not from quakes. If you built after, then all those worries would not be present! What is the problem with building later, after the shift?

NORSEMAN: That's right Viola, we are a world wide group.

WARMA: For storage, I would make a cellar in solid rock with a steel roof at ground-level

NEMESIS: There are some designs for "temporary accommodations" available on the web, most are very basic though

SHADOW: That's right.

VIOLA: I think there is a lot of sense in building later, as one could even move the stuff to another spot, in case the chosen local becomes infested with STS folks, gangs.

SOL: Consider that you may have to abandon, or pick up and move all your preparations based upon local conditions. One could continue to dig into an impossible location and perish if this is not recognized.

WARMA: Damage from wind and quakes would have to be expected, but to be repaired. Better to have a place to start with. And frankly, I don't think anybody could take it away from me (or that be a likely scenario in our part of the world).

VIOLA: I have a horror of seeing good folk put their all into housing for afterwards, stocked, and seeing them on the road or path later, told to leave or be killed. Think of the anger! The despair! Better to have many material and stores in multiple places, and slip it away from the STS ass-holes.

NORSEMAN: But better to be safe then sorry I think. Building later is a better idea I think.

VIOLA: Warma, if no one would know of your spot, then your construction sounds like it would withstand anything!

VIOLA: Sol, explain, dig into an impossible location, etc. I've been doing some musing about the weeks ahead of the shift, trying to foresee what society will be like, what the governments might do, etc. Which way folks will jump.

SPOT: So have I.

VIOLA: Even if the status quo, where nothing is being said on the media, continues. Folks will begin to take note and arrive at their own conclusions, based on slowing rotation and a red thing in the sky drawing closer, etc.

WARMA: OK, OK. In case the building didn't make it, I was forced away by others, of course one must be prepared to build new houses after the pole shift. I see no reason why that should prevent me from preparing as best I can.

NORSEMAN: But each country has different issues to deal with after the shift I think.

WARMA: Luck has to be planned carefully!

SOL: The costs of hardened shelters can seem daunting. Think of hardened shelters as just enough to get you by until you can build a more reasonable shelter after. If you think of the cost of sheltering dozens or hundreds of people for a log period of time in a shelter hardened for surviving the shift it seem un-doable unless you have unlimited funding. Think of smaller hardened shelters to get by in and storage for materials to build after.

VIOLA: Warma, each locale is different, for sure. Here in the US we could expect the US military to confiscate anything constructed, and that's a fact. FEMA is allowed, and is ready to do so! It's not smart in the US to build ahead of time. So what are all these restless folks in cities going to do, when they sense something is really up! Now they are coming out with yet another movie about a comet, I saw the previews.

SPOT: My wife works at a supermarket and they just started closing at nine instead of eleven. It is interesting watching folks cuss and fume because their store is not there.

NORSEMAN: Change, they have to deal with change :)

VIOLA: This movie, called Deep Impact, has a premise that society is told a million folks will go underground, for safety and to restart the human race. A lottery is run, and the US (shades of Star Wars) goes up to try to shoot the comet down before it can hit).

SPOT: As time gets closer, it will be dangerous because of folks wanting what you got.

EAGLE: We can help teach people how to grow food, how to start fire, how to build shelter.

VIOLA: Now, folks are going to realize something is up. What will they DO the week before rotation stops, when the clocks are perhaps an hour slower than a week before?

SPOT: Correct Norseman.

WARMA: I believe I may be in a lucky spot for the pole shift. Close to the new equator, only a few hours drive to a safe spot, no US Army to take my building. I agree, Viola, for you guys in the US, you should probably go for building after the pole shift.

FREEDOM: Warma, where is the new equator going to be?

VIOLA: If they get in their cars, or just head out on foot, they will go to farm lands, valleys in mountains, and press the residents there to take them in. This pressure will be hysterical, frightened people are usually not polite.

SOL: A location may have seemingly good geology but then turn out to be a scarp right in the middle of your camp. You may escape flooding in your precise location, but have extensive flooding all around effectively isolating you from supplies you find later that you need to live but are miles away.

AZIMUTH: I was thinking, maybe each TEAM may have it's own monthly independent chat on.

AZIMUTH: like #tt-steam #tt-web etc.

EAGLE: I think this will happen.

FREEDOM: Good idea, Azimuth.

SPOT: Good idea. We still have the other IRC channel we just made also.

WARMA: Freedom, look at ../poleshft/p10.htm. The Scandinavian peninsula will be aligned with the equator.

NORSEMAN: Good idea. Yes good idea.

VIOLA: Freedom, there a new geography map in ZetaTalk, if you believe this source of info.

FREEDOM: Thanks, Warma.

SPOT: The equator will run between Alaska and Russia also.

AZIMUTH: Alaska will see warmer days.

WARMA: And pass over Antarctica.

SPOT: Sure will.

AZIMUTH: Africa stays as is, somewhat colder.

AZIMUTH: Europe mostly flooded with some exceptions.

SPOT: India is the new South Pole.

VIOLA: Sol, one should consider 1. quake plates and try to be in the middle, 2. don't be on faults, 3. don't be near a coast line for tidal waves, 4. don't be where backwash of rivers overloaded with water can run flooding over you, 5. don't be where polar melt will put you under water within 2 years. West Coast of US, a line drawn up along eastern coast of Africa and Europe, will be near the equator, warm.

AZIMUTH: Viola, what is your opinion about that each TEAM may have it's own monthly independent chat on IRC?

VIOLA: Florida, Brazil, and India close to poles.

SOL: Location, location, location.

SPOT: Yes.

VIOLA: Well, Florida will be like Canada, as well as the east Coast of US. The Atlantic widens, the Pacific shortens.

AZIMUTH: I finds comfort in the thought that nature will be on the rebound.

NORSEMAN: And what's your opinion about a 'WEB' team?


WARMA: Which, according to the ZetaTalk (if I remember right), should be 100 feet up and 20 miles inland during the shift, and 700 feet after the pole melt.

NORSEMAN: I asked it on the list but no one replied yet.

VIOLA: But then, this is if one trusts the Zetas are right, based on their understanding of what will happen.

VIOLA: Norse, what do you mean, a "web" team?

SPOT: 700 feet up 200 miles inland.

NORSEMAN: Well those who will look at the design, the web design, the graphics, the links, etc.

NORSEMAN: Azimuth, explain further please?

AZIMUTH: Viola, a team where a few members focus on the work on the site.

NORSEMAN: That's what I mean.

AZIMUTH: Like graphics, webwrapping, new structures.

VIOLA: A web team today would be composed of those individual with design talent, and who know how to do web wrapping. If the web wrapping techniques were procedurized, then I think many could likewise do this work.

AZIMUTH: It would make a good TEAM.

SPOT: Leaves me out of that team.

NORSEMAN: And me too :)

VIOLA: However, one of the greatest dangers to a large and growing site is to have too many cooks.

NORSEMAN: Geeez.. I don't belong to a team yet :(

VIOLA: Azimuth, what is meant by "work on the site?"

SOL: I like western Kansas.

AZIMUTH: Well, Norseman does translation work together with me and checks for outdated links and looks for additional links so he could join the web team.

VIOLA: Azimuth, I think we need more web developers, but that the structure must be consistent. Not too many cooks.

NORSEMAN: And I am getting more experience with html sort off

AZIMUTH: Viola, 'work on the site' I am doing this for school too, making their site now. It will be my profession, web design. Work on the site is too general too explain and depends on the individuals.

VIOLA: Yes, but each volunteer on web audit or development work is different! Today I get graphics from many of our graphic artists sources. Where a graphic needs to be touched up, I normally do that touch up but would love help.

FREEDOM: I am learning html too.

VIOLA: Today most of the web wrapping time is spent on cleaning up the editing, spell checking, and making a page out of a discussion often. Determining where the content should go can be terribly scrambled if done by too many.

NEMESIS: I'd be willing to contribute anything I can.

SPOT: I am no good at html. Babe does mine for me.

VIOLA: For instance, we have now 100 TOPICs and will soon have 500. It happens constantly that folks do not know where something is, and try or start to build it in an area when it is already started someplace else! This would become a nightmare if many cooks were throwing stuff into the stew.

SPOT: Good point Viola

VIOLA: Azimuth, I already have Norseman listed in Tasks as a web auditor, as well as others. He IS on the web team, per my task listing!

SPOT: Like too many mechanics working on your car, they all have different opinions.

WARMA: Concerning teams, I have proposed to coordinate a write-up on technology survival (maybe no good idea if you cannot plan for a permanent survival site?) or on local community building. With local community building, I mean planning for what skills must be present, how to organize the group (how to get elected as the new king :-)) etc. Anybody interested?

AZIMUTH: The new king?

VIOLA: Norseman, I have yet to see a hypertext page that you put together! A web team of web wrappers must be composed of proven work, demonstrable products. Take a look at Fisherman's home page, or the fact that Azimuth can deliver a hypertext page that is perfect and web ready and done according to the rest of the web site, fits in.

NORSEMAN: I know what you mean

AZIMUTH: Norseman is a novice now.

VIOLA: I have stated for some months, years even, that Atom is the alternate web master, as he is reliable, consistent, and knows all aspects of this. I don't think he does graphics, but sure knows how to deal with them!

NORSEMAN: but my knowledge about html is on the increase.. I have to build a site for someone :)

VIOLA: I think the site will continue to have consistency, no redundancy, if a single web master controls the overall look-and-feel.

WARMA: There should not be too many web designers. But non-web designers can do work too. Today, I think there are too many icons, too many pages with too little text, and sometimes difficult to find things. To review the text does not require html-skills.

NEMESIS: By the way, a personal opinion, I would avoid using MicroSoft FrontPage, I originally wrote my site in html, converted it to Front Page oriented. A nightmare. Still trying to get all that MicroSoft code out of my pages.

VIOLA: Web auditing is a constant need, as external links always change, and human error can slip past testing. I test all links, but in ftp to a site, file by file, sometimes I make mistakes.

VIOLA: Azimuth, King?

SOL: html is just formatted text. We want to keep it simple so it loads well on low powered computers/connections. This simple type of web page could be e-mailed to a team leader who would approve for content check for errors and post given the team leader has the ftp password. Members of the team could add content by filling out a simple form and e-mailing it to the team leader.

NORSEMAN: Frontpage kind of messes up the source code on occasion

VIOLA: Atom would continue the discipline of putting a page up, according to the existing structure.

NORSEMAN: But it's wysiwyg and works fast :)

AZIMUTH: (how to get elected as the new king :-)) etc. Anybody interested??

VIOLA: You think this is easy! I add a page according to a naming convention that allowed me to recognize it among thousands.


AZIMUTH: It was a response to what Warma wrote.

NEMESIS: Terrible piece of software IMHO, better writing from scratch.

VIOLA: I put it into the TOPIC, into the frame version, into the TOC versions, into the views.

WARMA: Azimuth, did you see the :-)

NORSEMAN: Nemesis: yeah but try that with a lot of text :)

VIOLA: This requires all manner of links behind the scene, Then I document all this in a .PPT layout per TOPIC, a list of external links per page, a list of graphics and where they are linked from. Then I keep a hard copy of all in case all electronics are wiped out by a magnetic storm. Then I maintain all these admin files and send them to off-site in Europe and Alaska.

WARMA: In the after-time, current governments are gone, no social security, no police etc. Before we all move into an STO environment, we will need strong leaders. Kings and presidents? No, that was only a joke.

VIOLA: Then I weekly send all updates to mirror sites and others who need a full copy of the web sites to do their job, also off-site backup

SPOT: Yep:-)

VIOLA: Now, how would a web team not scramble that!

NEMESIS: Norseman, sure, takes time but at least you can have the page how you want it and not how MicroSoft thinks it should be.

VIOLA: If you want to help, then you clean up the postings, so they are a single page, as putting this onto a hypertext page takes about a minute. The cleanup is what takes time!

NORSEMAN: Nemesis: I am using a trial version of dreamwaver, and it doesn't mess with the source. Doesn't put metatags above the source saying it's made by dreamwaver.

SPOT: A strong leader is one who does, and others follow his example.

NEMESIS: That said my site is hardly a paragon of tidiness and presentation ;-)

AZIMUTH: Can't you Viola delegate some task to others?

VIOLA: In TT we have a couple thousand entities, pages and graphics and hypertext pages that work behind the scenes.

NEMESIS: I use Web Edit for the same purpose, good for long texts, you can tag text with hot keys, for headings paragraphing etc.

VIOLA: Java Script is involved, converting graphics to a lean number of bytes, and being highly organized. Folks that want to do this, and folks that have proven they can, are two different things.

SOL: The we should concentrate on posting text ready to be pasted into an html.

NORSEMAN: Just delegate, then the others send the stuff to you etc. :)

NEMESIS: Is Java a good idea? You'd be surprised how many people are unable to view it.

VIOLA: Those I delagate to cuts the mustard, they DO this. I don't delegate because someone wants the task. I delegate when folks show they can do it!

AZIMUTH: So again can you tell who you think can?

NORSEMAN: I am a novice, but I am creating a site :) right Azimuth?

WARMA: The current Web team does a great job. Maybe difficult to spread it more than it is. But write-ups could be done as down-loadable PDF files, with only abstracts on the web.

VIOLA: A reliable TT member told me she will collect all posting on the Gossip mailing list, and clean this up for web wrapping. I'm happy to accept her offer, but she has demonstrated many many times earlier that she DOES what she says she will do! She is reliable, and this is what is #1 before any delegation takes place.

AZIMUTH: Yes you are Norseman, but lets drop this for now, the point is that you first have to show you can, and show consistency in doing it.

VIOLA: Several other TT members are collecting ballots at present, during Votecalls, They are reliable or I would find myself doing it just to be safe. Azimuth, I would accept your help in putting web pages up from raw text and graphics, as you have shown me you can do this during translation, and are reliable. You would have to follow the structure and procedure that I have developed. Now, this structure, mind you, has grown up because of requests from the list serve - for views, for TOC versions, for frames, etc. Delegation, in my mind, of my tasks will involve more content related efforts.

NORSEMAN: But Azimuth works with a map and on occasion some weird text shows up. I changed the text several times.

VIOLA: Today, we have posting on the mailing lists. This at times is wonderful content and I save this off and spend hours cleaning it up to make a web page out of it. I would like this very time consuming process to go to others, who are reliable and known to the group.

NORSEMAN: Things have to get converted from MAC to PC :)

VIOLA: Norseman, in the TT group, we don't get a title because we want it, first we demonstrate that we can do this. We're brutal in this regard as the issue is so important. Web wrapping is too important to give to someone just because they want it.

NORSEMAN: I know, Viola.

VIOLA: What will it be when we have 35 mailing lists or TEAMs working on IRC? I can't be there for all of it. There must be those who will collect the content, and deliver zipped files of text pages and graphics, etc. The web master sorts that out, decides what TOPIC it belongs in, and goes through the multi-step procedure that I described.

VIOLA: To delegate, this would be sent to web wrappers who might deliver the finished pages and all, but it seems more work than it is worth. Better to have a graphics volunteer, who will clean up graphics and return them, etc. Better to have a web audit group, who checks the links regularly (we have this now and Norseman is certainly the lead on THAT!) Been doing it for years, often behind the scenes where others don't know he does this.

NEMESIS: What do you mean by clean up?

NORSEMAN: But the web audit team should have good communication with the 'web' team.

VIOLA: Nemesis, the postings are sometimes on subject, but often veer toward the discussion. I edit to take the discussion out of it. For instance, if someone says "your last statement" that will be removed and other text in place, so it is a dissertation rather than a conversation.

AZIMUTH: Only where needed, where do you think this is needed?

NORSEMAN: Like 2 divisions (webmaster -> webteam + audit team)

VIOLA: Very time consuming. I do all of this, 18 hour days, 7 days a week, when all is considered. Norseman, you send me an e-mail saying you found a broken link, and what you think the problem is. That's worked well.

NEMESIS: OK, I don't envy your task

AZIMUTH: There isn't a web team.

NORSEMAN: No not yet. There is no web-team. don't know if there will be any.

VIOLA: Norseman, that's more admin overhead than help, really! If the content is delivered clean, my work would be 1/10 of what it is today!

AZIMUTH: It's a question if there will be a webteam too.

VIOLA: A single person should do web wrapping of content, either me or Atom, not multiple people.

NORSEMAN: Viola: that's not what I mean, I am not into a admin overhead..

SPOT: Agreed

VIOLA: Another task I could delegate is the members, I keep logs of the members and their changing e-mail addresses.

VIOLA: Often a contact will change their e-mail address, and then I must change those pages. Now THERE is where an assistance would be handy. This always takes a couple hours.


NORSEMAN: Changing e-mail addresses and such is a problem. :)

AZIMUTH: I would love to see Viola having time for other things soon

SPOT: Yes, like moving.

VIOLA: The admin overhead, let me explain. A TT member right now is trying to be TEAM lead in School TOPIC area. When stuff gets posted, she picks it up and cleans it up and delivers it to me. Sometimes I collect stuff that she does not. Now I must compare what she delivers versus what I saved, and discard duplicates. Better she have the WHOLE area, as otherwise this creates work as much as relieves work.

NORSEMAN: Yes, it seems like Viola is very very busy.

VIOLA: I want TT folks, who are reliable, to take over whole TOPIC areas, like hydroponics, like windmills, like illumination, like .. gardens, whatever. Own them.

AZIMUTH: I can make up the html and do graphics, work on the MTV clip soon but that's it

VIOLA: Pull off content in discussions in postings and clean it up so it reads like a dissertation, not a discussion. Deliver this to me, with any graphics that have been provided by whomever, and I'll love you forever!!! Azimuth, the web team is not MY idea! If you're asking the most efficient way to get the work done, it would be as I stated.

SPOT: Her schedule would scare you silly if you followed her around just one day.

VIOLA: A single web master coordinating, and determining where what goes. This is either me or Atom in my absence. Web auditors as today, doing link checking or looking for typos (Norseman is great at all of this!) Graphic artists offering art for those without this talent. We have a number of graphic artists too, doing this today. TEAM leads to take ownership of TOPIC areas and deliver clean content in text and graphic (which may get cleaned up by the graphic artists). The actual hypertext development is too complex to delegate without creating more headaches. If all the above were done, would be only 10 hours per month, not the 100 it takes today.

NORSEMAN: Yes, that's right, it's complex.. The structure etc of the site have to be the same, tags have to be the same and so on.

SPOT: Mail filters work great for this. I have one set up so that if the word hydroponics is written, it is saved in that file and not mixed in with all the others.

VIOLA: I might add, that even changing an e-mail address cannot be delegated without giving the passwords to the alpha and beta site away, as the ftp is what is most time consuming. This I won't do, except to Atom, period!

NORSEMAN: Well you're right about that, don't give the password to everyone :))

VIOLA: Spot! Wonderful! Mail filters!

SPOT: I started doing this during the vote in tt-inc.

AZIMUTH: the future is uncertain, many surprises and we will be ready for them.

VIOLA: Azimuth, your time is best used in the MTV clip, for sure! Few, other than you, can even be considered for this task! So, if we have a quake here and I must stop pulling content from the postings, we need others to do this! Guys, should we bring this up for discussion in the various groups? I have hesitated to dump this on folks as there are so many changes!

SPOT: Mail filters

VIOLA: Then again, a crisis often is the best way to mobilize folks. When I CANNOT pull off the content, I have no doubt that many volunteers will emerge and take this task over. Some TT members are leading this effort and are just the start.

SPOT: Yes, I do think we should bring this up. If we don't and a quake happens. Then it is too late to bring it up.

VIOLA: Sol, for instance, you have been all over the map on your postings, contributing, but if I were to ask you do take over illumination topics, whether on the tt-focus or tt-forum, would you do that? Collect the content, and deliver it to me monthly? Spot, you're on the Steam TEAM, a favorite topic of yours, would you collect this from the tt-forum and deliver it to me, cleaned up a bit, monthly?

SPOT: Yes Mam.

VIOLA: The time has come for me to do this. The next growth spurt will be into TEAMS, we've just started this, and content will be coming from many directions. Developing responsible team leads who will deliver content is something we MUST move to, within the 1,000 Member Model.

SPOT: My wife has had a rash on her back for years. I applied Colloidal Silver once and now it is half gone.

SPOT: One more mail filter :-)

NEMESIS: I thought Colloidal Silver was discredited?

VIOLA: Nemesis, we have many advocates on the list. It seems the discrediting only happened when antibiotics came available, that the pharmacies could make money on, and doctors dispensing could make money on. Up until then, silver was used extensively!

VIOLA: What do you folks think the government will do in the last, days, the last weeks, when it is obvious to all that something is going to happen?

SPOT: I don't think the government will say anything.

VIOLA: Spot, wow!!!

SOL: What they (the US govt) will do will be in response to public reaction to events. I would not expect them to do anything to provoke reaction.

SPOT: I think they will just work behind the scenes doing their little takeover tasks.

VIOLA: OK, so 2 folks think NOTHING will be done! The last week will take everyone by surprise, then.

NEMESIS: I'm aware of its history. I suppose that it's a possibility.

AZIMUTH: The last week?

VIOLA: But, I have a niggling suspicion that there will be behind the scenes help for groups like ours.

SPOT: That is my feeling

NORSEMAN: There will be, sure of that.

SPOT: There already is.

VIOLA: For instance, while denying everything officially, our educational routes, the message we deliver of self help and "you can do it" will allow the populace to prepare, in spite of government denial. This is win-win when you think of it!

AZIMUTH: We know, that's why we are doing this.

SPOT: Yes.


EAGLE: There will be those who will gravitate to the gov't camps.

SOL: Help? From the govt? I would expect them to discredit and attack groups like ours.

VIOLA: If there are many families growing gardens with non-hybrid seeds, having the tent and tools ready for a trip to the country, etc., then everyone benefits!

SPOT: Yes, that is why it is good to lead by example.

VIOLA: The government, or military, to save themselves while the populace becomes starving and sick and bangs on the outside of their shelters or underground shelters will not be a benefit.


NEMESIS: Government help? I doubt it. In the case of the UK at least.

SPOT: They may call it help, but it will not be.

VIOLA: They would be better off to have the populace living in huts, gardening, eating worm protein, and THERE for the military and government when it wants to start up again. This might be their logic, no?

NORSEMAN: Our county won't be safe, So I doubt it :(

SPOT: Possible

NEMESIS: A more likely scenario IMO is the "appropriation" of your equipment/supplies for "the common good"

SPOT: They must have people to rule, so they may do something. But, I think it will be for their benefit not ours.

VIOLA: Sol, discredit only to the extent that we might be showing that the 12th, etc., previous pole shifts, are REAL. However, if they discredit too much, then the populace won't start gardening, etc. A fine line to trod. So I think the element of doubt will be used, not hard vicious discrediting.

NORSEMAN: Yep, even in the UK I think.

SPOT: They already do this sort of thing. Especially in the UFO field.

NORSEMAN: And in the Netherlands, but if our government knows about it don't know.

VIOLA: I'm not talking about the military or congress or whatever that might be called in other countries than the US. I agree that generals and politicians are too self dealing to think of the larger good for folks, in spite of what they might say.

NEMESIS: The mentality of the British public is such that they rely upon the state to do everything for them.

SPOT: I would assume ALL governments already know about it. It's called the UN.

VIOLA: I'm looking to behind the scenes forces. I guess I'm talking about MJ12 as I know them, the major core of them, and some financiers. Take for instance CNN's Ted Turner, how bought a huge amount of land in the west, Montana I think, and gave it over to buffalo herds to proliferate. He also then gave almost a billion dollars to the UN.

SPOT: Yes, I see now.

NORSEMAN: Think that they will 'offer' (help) us maybe sooner than we think.

AZIMUTH: We must focus on getting the message out and regard the government as an institution that will not support us but somehow won't stand in our way either. They won't care and be too busy with their own salvation. Our message, once 'the hundredth monkey' syndrome hits in, will get attention due to a domino effect. Word to mouth. So keep on pointing out those signs and how to survive in the best way that we all can.

VIOLA: Spot, I doubt they tell folks who are weak and loose lipped. I think VERY FEW politicians and countries actually know the facts.

SOL: I see how much it taxed resources here in Oklahoma when the federal building was bombed. The scope of disaster the pole shift will produced is orders of magnitude greater. The government will be spread too thin to help or hinder when it hits. Self sufficiency is the only answer. Just stay away from concentrations of power that will appropriate your preparations for themselves.

NEMESIS: Hmmm, don't know. sorry natural born cynic

SPOT: MJ12 is already helping us I would think. By changing their status from very bad guys to only bad guys.

NORSEMAN: They aren't that bad anymore. I think.

VIOLA: Nemesis, that's the average man, they look to be saved, if not by Jesus then by the space brothers, or the government hand out, or else the local community leaders who are pressed into becoming the parent's for these overgrown children, etc.

SPOT: Could be Viola

VIOLA: MOST people are not mature, responsible, and thinking of others, in my opinion, its the minority. Sol, I could not have said it better!

SPOT: What about the STS aliens? Wouldn't they tell the others?

EAGLE: Why are people not mature and STO?

SPOT: The human ego.

NORSEMAN: I doubt that they will. Telling is warning. and the STS love Panic.

EAGLE: Is that something that that can be excised?

VIOLA: I find myself mentally preparing to be in the leadership position we are already in, with a lot more exposure to the media, but with the attacks no worse than they have been todate. I think we should continue to emphasize that folks can help themselves, and how.

AZIMUTH: we must focus on getting the message out and regard the government as an institution that will not support us but somehow won't stand in our way either. They won't care and be too busy with their own salvation. Our message, once 'the hundredth monkey' syndrome hits in, will get attention due to a domino effect. Word to mouth. So keep on pointing out those signs and how to survive in the best way that we all can.

FREEDOM: I doubt the government will do much of anything to help people.

VIOLA: The poor man with garden seeds and a few bags of concrete is not going to be in a much different position than a rich man whose house is a wreck, and whose servants have in any case tossed him out and taken over, drinking the fine wine he had stored in the basement.

AZIMUTH: =) Yes they will enjoy themselves silly

SPOT: I call that flushing the toilet.

NEMESIS: A colorful way of looking at it.

VIOLA: No doubt, the rich man's Hispanic gardener might give him a bite to eat from the gardens he has going. It's going to be a great leveler, this shift!

AZIMUTH: Masking the horror

SPOT: Yes. There will be horror no doubt.

NEMESIS: Horror indeed.

VIOLA: Our site, if you think about it, is so very universal. We have EVERY type of person, sex, religion, race, country, class, and all getting along and contributing! I think this is kind of unusual. Thus, in a crisis, we could be pointed to and get requests for help from almost any part of the world!

NORSEMAN: Yes that's right, Viola

SPOT: Yes.

VIOLA: We even are into translating into languages (I'd like to see Spanish started!)

AZIMUTH: I think this view depends on how you behold the human race Viola though.

SPOT: It is universal No one else can say that

VIOLA: Azimuth, what do you mean?

AZIMUTH: It's something to be proud off!

SPOT: Do we still have that Spanish gentleman on the list?

VIOLA: So, if a group of financiers and whatever, power brokers like perhaps MJ12, wanted to get the world thinking and doing what will help the survivors be healthy, then TT is probably the best bet they have now!

AZIMUTH: If your experience is that humans do not get along, being unable to work with each other because of superficial differences then indeed you will find this unusual

NORSEMAN: Not that I know off. I remember that someone once e-mailed a translations to the list, and we have a Mexican member, or had.

FREEDOM: If they protect their soldiers then haven't they already saved their populace?

VIOLA: Would the churches do it? How would they explain the shift? The tendency would be to say Jesus will save you, etc.

NEMESIS: What makes you believe that they'll want the world healthy?

VIOLA: Would the governments do it? They can hardly do for the populace what they should now! They are overstetched and too heavy with corruption. They will do nothing!

SPOT: The church will not do it. It would blow their cover

NORSEMAN: Yup, right Clipper

AZIMUTH: The priests will cry out on national TV that this is God's wrath.

NEMESIS: That comes under "the Lord helps those who help themselves" ;-)

EAGLE: The churches will definitely not do it

SOL: Viola, are you suggesting that some groups will start financing us with some serious bucks?

NORSEMAN: Yep, sure they will and also the reverends not only the priests I think

VIOLA: Nemesis, I think coming out of shelters when their supplies run out, they would rather have a healthy populace to rule, as rule is what they want, then sick or dead. They want to tax the crops, that's why, and have workers to grow the crops. The alternative is having to hoe those rows themselves!

SPOT: I think when that help comes, it will be all at once.

VIOLA: Military will fall apart, thought they don't think they will. The Jewish Exodus shows what happens during a shift.

NEMESIS: They can have workers though, well or unwell, feudal lords ruled by force of arms.

VIOLA: The Jews walked out of Egypt, old women, toddlers, sick and all, while the Egyptian soldiers let them do it. THIS is what the military can expect. Spot, explain, all at once, etc. Help for us?

EAGLE: So we are the New Exodus?

SPOT: When it is time to start funding TT, it will come from many sources and about the same time.

AZIMUTH: things are getting worse already. You see how the scientists react, some churches react, the populace. The changes will be the focus of the news soon, interviews will be given by so-called experts explaining what is happening. Some will say this, others will say that. This is what will happen.

VIOLA: Nemesis, I think the first instinct was me-first and me-only. I think wanting a healthy crop-growing populace is a second thought. I suspect they already have their shelters and their supplies, Mt. Weather and all.

SPOT: I wouldn't attach a name like the new exodus to us.


AZIMUTH: Mt. Weather =)

VIOLA: Eagle, the general populace, unless they have a general as an unwanted roomer ahead of the shift, will find the military disoriented, the troops going AWOL, and even turning on the generals and taking their weapons, playing king-of-the-hill, etc.

SPOT: Golf anyone?

SOL: After the stock market crash there will be many dollars seeking real value.

VIOLA: Sol, and we'll point them to worm beds, non-hybrid seeds, etc., and a good shovel and hammer and nails!

NEMESIS: .Gov's worldwide, if they are aware will be prepared and in better shape then the general populace. They'll have MASSIVE stocks of what they require laid in and most of the people they need to implement whatever plans they have. The only thing they'll need from their citizens is manual labor

SPOT: And steam engines:-)

AZIMUTH: Yes we will

NEMESIS: Look at the plans most govs had for nuclear wars.

VIOLA: That's one reason I want us all to garden and grow seeds, there may be a rush on this stuff, and pricy too, so we need to take this SERIOUS. I'm going to garden if I'm not still living on the 3rd floor without soil. Everyone should do SOMETHING.

SPOT: I am buying a new rototiller with our tax refund.

SPOT: We are planting two gardens this year.

VIOLA: Nemesis, manual labor means labor camps or healthy survivors. I suspect there will be captured survivors on the roam, pressed into service, no doubt, but they will want the populace healthy so replacements for the new Kings will be available.

SPOT: Fresh meat so to speak

VIOLA: I'm not saying this is a good thing, but if you think about it, BOTH camps, ourselves with self help and their camp wanting king-ships, BOTH would want a healthy populace!


SPOT: It's called concentration camps

NORSEMAN: Yes, but I wouldn't like that.

AZIMUTH: Never disregard a possibility.

VIOLA: There are all those tales of camps with barbed wire in the US, the government stocking them with shackles and hand cuffs. They getting ready for the roving survivors of earthquakes that happen even earlier than the shift, folks coming over from California to Nevada, marching east.

NORSEMAN: Yes, Clipper that's the name.

NEMESIS: Don't know, no way I can see the UK gov giving backing to any self-help org. Just not their way, toe the state line or be a criminal. Take your choice.

AZIMUTH: Viola, how do you feel about this? I am appalled about such camps.

SPOT: Did you guys hear that they are to test a plutonium bomb about 35 miles from my house?

NORSEMAN: Geeez, they are crazy if they do that. Don't they think about the people that live closeby.

SPOT: It is called a bunker buster.


SOL: I would hope that over a short time after the shift a "swords into plowshares" mentality will prevail as it is seen that ALL resources have to go into food production and healthcare. The use of force will be seen as inefficient.

AZIMUTH: Hey spot, you are always welcome to move to my house =)

SPOT: Thanks Azimuth, but they are testing it's ability to penetrate the earth. No big explosion.

NORSEMAN: Radioactivity?

SPOT: It is to happen on March 11, in three days.

AZIMUTH: Hey, it's the thought that counts.

SPOT: Yes, they are using plutonium, those morons.

NORSEMAN: If something bad happens then, geeez, they are morons for sure

SPOT: They keep it hush hush around here.

AZIMUTH: Naturally

SPOT: Yep, a fine example of our government at work.

NORSEMAN: Our government never does these kind of things for what I know

SPOT: Could be Norse, not sure. I never thought they would do it here either.

AZIMUTH Yes, I am glad I live in Europe really!

NEMESIS: I agree, they do seem one of the more reasonable .govs

NORSEMAN: I am glad too

SPOT: But, for the Pole shift, Alaska is a good place to be.