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icon 14-Dec-97

Note: it is a general Troubled Times policy to change the names of IRC participants to screen names and remove personal discussions that occurred during the chat in the interests of privacy.

WAFFLE: Well I still like the torus idea for a house I'm going to build a model and test strength I think, if I can figure out what to build it out of. You can put heat in the middle and heat the whole thing. Also you have privacy from one side to the other, etc.

CARRIE: I have lots of misgivings about setting up a site. I mean, what if it is destroyed in the pole shift!

SHADOW: Yeah, I know.

NORSEMAN: That could happen, but I think that the main issue is what if it's not destroyed in the pole shift then a lot of people can live there... :)

SPOT: I think there is some new stuff coming that we aren't aware of yet, on the idea of Dome construction, that is.

WAFFLE: Well I sent pics of a half-torus (or a full-torus embedded in the ground. Should be as strong as a dome, maybe easier to make, like a donut shape. I'm trying to figure out what to make it out of or something.

WAFFLE: I think its time for me to get pesticide-free veggies. These carrots are pukey.

NORSEMAN: What do you mean?

CARRIE: Waffle: Go take some Pepto-Bismo!

WAFFLE: : Chants his mantra: "linux. . .linux . . .linux . . .linux"

NORSEMAN: I kind of know what you mean Waffle :) but I don't use linux

SPOT: I have a spare machine I think I am going to set up with linux, just for kicks.

SHADOW: I'm gonna try to get a spare too.

NORSEMAN: And maybe in one of the next months I will put linux on my pute as a second OS.

WAFFLE: The only problem I can have with linux is that if the power goes out there is chances of screwing it up. I'm trying to make it so it wont matter.

SPOT: My old Packard 486.

WAFFLE: There's a way to turn off write-caching I need to do it.

SPOT: Battery back up.

WAFFLE: Spot: it's a pain at first but learn it, it's k001.

WARMA: So you're not going to stock any MS CDs for the Aftertime?

WAFFLE: once you get the hang of it you'll like it because everything will work and it won't hose up.

SPOT: That's the part I don't like. Learning:-) I just want to use it.

WAFFLE: Plus it's 100% free which is how it should be.

SHADOW: Yeah, I hate to learn too.

WAFFLE: I can do more on linux than on Win95 except stupid games and stuff. Never crashes, etc.

SPOT: My 166 Packard does a great job kicking the crap out of windows.


NORSEMAN: Only Redhat cost a bit of money, and if I will put linux on my pute then it will be Redhat.

SPOT: I use the Tim Taylor method :-)

WAFFLE: I use slakware, got it in the back of a linux book:)

SPOT: More power!!! Arrrr Arrrr Arrrr!!!!

WAFFLE: Get this: you can install linux on a ZIP disk. We did it. I have another project I'm going to do also. I'm going to make a DOS floppy that you can boot without a hard drive, that will get you on the internet with a text-based browser (lynx).

SPOT: I don't know anything about programming.

WAFFLE: And also do telnet, and hopefully IRC all on one disk. Redhat is good, get it.

SPOT: I have heard.

WAFFLE: The thing with linux is that there are 100000 commands but you DON'T have to know how everything works to use it. You can pick up on stuff a little at a time, but you have to read directions etc.

SPOT: No!!! No directions, I hate that.

WAFFLE: It took me a while, but now that I forced myself to learn it after giving up a couple times, its SO rad. :)

WAFFLE: Like making a ppp connection, it's real easy, you edit 5 files but you have to know which ones.. Only 1 line edited in each file, I can do it faster than someone can set up ppp on windoze ;) I think.

VIOLA: Lately there has been discussion about community size. My feeling is that communities will be at a minimum family +, meaning family plus a few friends or peripheral relatives (uncle, etc.)

CARRIE: I think that communities will form based on the number and needs of people that are left.

SHADOW: Community size should be kept small but not too small.

SPOT: What did you think of those dome drawings that were put up?

NORSEMAN: I agree, maybe around 20 people?

VIOLA: Then these groups will join up afterwards, forming larger groups. Those communities that are planned earlier, in anticipation of the pole shift, will have all manner of problems, I expect.

WAFFLE: I think we need to discuss some sneaky ways to get the word out locally, etc. some way as to not point attention to the instigator.

SHADOW: I expect so.

SPOT: Others trying to take there stuff.

VIOLA: It WILL be possible for a larger group to form and plan, and succeed as they plan, but here's some of the problems that I foresee.

SHADOW: Word will get out fast at the locations of these places. Some will sell out so to speak.

WAFFLE: Most people don't have the internet.

NORSEMAN: That's right, Waffle.

VIOLA: Waffle, do you mean the word as in "here's where our survival group will be?"


WAFFLE: TT stuff in general.

WAFFLE: Short, concise document (1 flyer) that can explain everything, something, good, like a slap in the face.

VIOLA: Planned groups will not only be on record with the government, who may send in troops to be fed and "protect" the group, but others as well.

WAFFLE: I brought this up before, I forget if we talked about it or not.

CARRIE: There will be no way to keep these groups secret.

SHADOW: No, word gets around.

VIOLA: The establishment wants the masses to shop until they drop, attend to their jobs and not desert, and be desperate enough that they will accept dictatorship in return for a crust of bread.


SHADOW: Yes, this will happen for sure.

SPOT: Yep, broke and hungry.

VIOLA: Waffle, that's where our many web sites (mirror, etc.) are handy.

WAFFLE: Or dead.

CARRIE: Which is what the establishment will do, human nature.

VIOLA: I think OTHERS will put up the flyers, as time goes on.

WAFFLE: They want it so that anyone who doesn't fall to their knees dies.

SHADOW: They always wait till last minute for things.

VIOLA: How do you suppose that establishment groups will take planned communities?

VIOLA: We've seen some evidence of how they might react, on the list serve.

CARRIE: Infiltrate and integrate.

WAFFLE: I know, but at least people need to have ideas how to disperse the information without drawing attention to themselves.

SPOT: After the pole shift, Waffle.

WAFFLE: Because most people won't risk the embarrassment, etc.

VIOLA: One of the things that was suggested was a "payment system". The only ones who need a payment system are those who would be the elite, as then they can skim off the activity and live like stock brokers or stockholders, etc.

WARMA: Government here isn't as bad as yours.

VIOLA: Payment system will naturally evolve to be a barter system. OK, lets speculate. How would the NWO take the formation of many communities?

WAFFLE: By putting that eye/pyramid ideal out as usual. Look on the $1 bill. That's the NWO in a picture.


VIOLA: Imagine you are a fat and happy corporate CEO, in the know as they are a member of MJ12, and nervous about their empire crumbling during the shift.

WAFFLE: They make everyone THINK they are idiots and can't do anything. It's that easy.

VIOLA: They want word of the coming cataclysms suppressed, but it is leaking out and folks taking notice and they know this suppression won't succeed.

CARRIE: How do they think their empire is going to survive the shift?

NORSEMAN: Right Viola

SPOT: On Mars

WAFFLE:The CEO would try to make everything seem like it's a-OK, OR he would try to show how he's going to 'save' everyone somehow.

VIOLA: They hear word that survivor groups are discussing matters, places like the TT list serve, and send in their spies. Now, what kind of shaping would they WANT, in this setting.

SHADOW: I think after the shift, they will be taking communities by force, with guns and such.

VIOLA: They expect they will have more supplies, more know-how, and will be the ones others come to for help.

WAFFLE: shaping//

CARRIE: IF they (NWO) survive the shift. And, if they find the communities, and if they are still cohesive as groups


VIOLA: Waffle, yes, they are used to being the ones who can dole out jobs, money, make the deals, and will want to continue this practice.

WAFFLE: If anyone has the means to do anything, the NWO has the resources. They will be around after the pole shift.

VIOLA: They will want people weak, not strong, so they can appear as the strong ones.

SPOT: Naaaa, blow hards.

SHADOW: They will first have the ones that rely on the government to help out.

VIOLA: They will also want folks to NOT KNOW, so the rich and powerful can continue to horde supplies and this discrepancy in strength exists.

WAFFLE: With $999999999999999 dollars in your pocket, you can build as many shelters as you want.

NORSEMAN: That's right Waffle.

CARRIE: That's right!

SHADOW: Money and know how.

SPOT: I think they will eat their own as well.

WAFFLE: And weak run to the strong because they are used to being controlled.

VIOLA: Shadow, yes, I expect those who denied, or could not do anything about it for some reason, will be sitting there for the NWO to manage.

SHADOW: Yes, the weak will be ruled by them.

CARRIE: We can't fight the NWO.

VIOLA: These will probably not be the strongest people, not strong minded, etc., and I expect will be easily led and intimidated.

WAFFLE: The ONLY thing people can do is DENY the power of money.

SPOT: Never say can't Carrie.

NORSEMAN: Carrie: but we can protect ourselves.

WAFFLE: Money = power, lose the money, lose the power.

CARRIE: That is true Waffle!

WAFFLE: Don't recognize the power of money and it is rendered useless.

CARRIE: What will money be worth after the pole shift?

VIOLA: However, the NWO is concerned about keeping their edge, with those strong and talented workers that they today only have control of due to their position - money, employer, deal maker, etc.

WAFFLE: And then the people WITH the stuff will run out and be on the same level as the rest, eventually.

SHADOW: Outwitting them will be easy for the strong minded

WAFFLE: Only in that way, can the elite die.

CARRIE: Outwitting them will be child's play!

SHADOW: True, true, true.

WAFFLE: People have to understand how bad it is for the long run to give in to MONEY, regardless of how hard it is at the time.

SHADOW: We do it now.

SPOT: Even the NWO is built of individual people. They will encounter the same problems we will to some respect.


WAFFLE: They need to know that the power of IGNORING money exceeds the power of it.

VIOLA: Here's how the NWO will lose their edge. 1. they will lose their money, as paper money and stocks will be worthless.

VIOLA: 2. They will horde, but their supplies will run out.

WAFFLE: And then they will run out of STUFF.

SHADOW: I have never seen any government people have their stuff together. Everything goes in channels.

CARRIE: However, private industry has its stuff together, doesn't need the government.

VIOLA: 3. they will have servants, bodyguards and workers, but these will desert when they sense the boss cannot take care of them anymore. In fact, the servants may just take over!

WAFFLE: They will probably run out before people think they do, by fighting over everything. Viola good point.

VIOLA: 4. They will have little to barter with, no more than the others, as they have been used to being taken care of.

SHADOW: The servants will take over. It will just be a matter of time on that

WAFFLE: Like 2 little boys who fight over the toy will break it and lose it all.

VIOLA: Now, fearing that this will occur, they would want to have communities 1. producing food, so they can distribute food to their servants and workers.

WAFFLE: Which means if they want to survive, they'll have to renounce the power of money as well ;), and get to work.

VIOLA: 2. looking up to the elite as they are today, for orders and protection or whatever, jobs. 3. with a payment system in place assuring that they can continue to skim their living off others. Right? What have I missed?

SPOT: Sounds about right.

SHADOW: I think though that the servants will all be plotting to overthrow them as time goes on.

SPOT: I think most will just die. Not preparing.

WAFFLE: I think those are pretty good assumptions, but I think more importantly is to show people HOW to not fall under the power of another.

NORSEMAN: I think so too, Spot.

SHADOW: It will be like another war, just smaller and among themselves.

VIOLA: We have seen a payment system insisted upon, registering others wanting to join a community, and that precious metals such as silver would be a good investment. None of this went over big in Troubled Times.

SPOT: They will get the same affect of the pole shift that we will.

WARMA: NWO or whatever - pull the plug on the society, and money disappears.

WARMA: Money is no longer what you store in the bank cellar, it is numbers in processors only.

WAFFLE: People NEED to realize that religion is a joke, that money is a joke, and that they already own the most technologically advanced machines on this planet - the human machine and brain.

VIOLA: OK, assuming that this is what the NWO wants, perhaps will try to arrange with martial law, herding folks into camps where they have no choice, what should communities do to avoid that fate?

SPOT: Fight back

VIOLA: One of the reasons I keep harping on the bait and switch, don't announce where your site is, keep it quiet and stay mobile, is for those reasons.

SPOT: Enough of that.:-)

WAFFLE: Pop tires. then they can't drive around. Banana's in the tailpipe.

SHADOW: Yes, the bait and switch system seems to work perfectly.

VIOLA: Imagine a small group, even if this is 100 folks. They have their stuff in small boxes, can be transported, and more than one stash of supplies.

WAFFLE: Thermite on the hood.

VIOLA: The shift happens, and they all meet carrying the various things, and survey the lay of the (new) land, the survivors and all. They move to a clearing on a nearby farm, one of the survival groups members farm. They setup tents and start hydroponics, etc., and along comes a troop of ex-military or Service-to-Self gang from a nearby city or whatever. They break camp and move to another spot, until they are in a good place. Now, this is what the NWO does NOT WANT.

WAFFLE: Yeah, movement. They want people herded so they can be controlled.

SHADOW: I think, moving every so often would be better than to wait and do it when discovered. Keep on the move, at least for awhile.

WAFFLE: It's hard to catch a loose dog, unless you tempt it with something, and the temptations must be ignored, no matter how tempting.

VIOLA: Shadow, the group should stay on the move, or rather stay MOBILE, and plan for this, yes.

WAFFLE: You have to say "I'm not a dog, and therefore I need no master."

NORSEMAN: That's right :)

SHADOW: Yes, definitely Viola. This would be the best

VIOLA: What the NWO wants it for folks 1. not to know so they cannot prepare, 2. be frightened and desperate and come to government or establishment camps for a bit to eat, and then be assigned a job.

WAFFLE: You can't keep a dog on the leash if you can't tempt it to get close enough to put the leash on

SHADOW: Send scouts out every so often and then when they come back, move the camp to where they were.

WAFFLE: Sorry you get the point :)

VIOLA: So you can see what we at TT are recommending is anti-NWO for sure!



VIOLA: We advise independence, self help, small groups, mobility, and the barter system.

WAFFLE: We need ways to convince people of this and how to avoid. Well I guess we have that info already.

NORSEMAN: Agree Waffle

WARMA: I believe (hope) NWO will not be any problem in my part of the world. Northern Europe will be reduced to a tiny island.

SHADOW: Many times when I talk about the switch and bait system, I am often asked, How do you know about that. Never thought about it. I tell them where I learned it. Through our group.

VIOLA: We advise against planned communities that will be on someone's map, payment systems, and trusting the government or big corporations to do a damn thing for them.

WAFFLE: Barter systems are OK just NOT money.

WAFFLE: Agreements for trades are honest and over with :)

SHADOW: Barter systems work great.

SPOT: We barter here at home all the time.

SHADOW: I use the barter system a lot. Trade me this for that, and the deal is done.

VIOLA: Warma, this is mostly a US concern, due to the laws that have been enacted that allow FEMA to run the government, etc. It's the NWO dream, and they sneaked this into the laws of the land. Don't know that this will happen, but the groundwork has been laid.

WAFFLE: It's the only human thing to do:) not like dogs.

VIOLA: Former government workers will be distraught after the shift, as well as former military.

SPOT: The ground work was laid about 70 years ago or so.

VIOLA: They are used to thinking their big parent is there for them. Spot, is this not the mind set?

SPOT: Yes it is Viola.

VIOLA: Those who stashed away a lot into retirement plans, their life savings, will also be distraught, as the safety blanket they thought would be there is gone.

WAFFLE: I have an example

VIOLA: These folks will walk around, muttering about what has happened, wondering what to do.

SPOT: I think that was the plan when it all started. For folks to stash them selves right into the control of others.

WAFFLE: I go to a community college for art stuff, and most of the people can't do anything.

VIOLA: Those who had the least, or were most independent and independent minded to begin with, will do the best.

WAFFLE: They don't try, want mommy to do it for them. Some of them are from rich neighborhoods where they got the Mustang GT for xmas or whatever.

VIOLA: Farmers, self employed, the Hispanic gardeners, the hunter in his cabin, etc. These will adapt most readily.

WAFFLE: Just a point, most people believe they are brainless so don't try.

SPOT: Most of it started on Jeckle Island years ago.

WARMA: A Norwegian shipowner is part of the NWO board - still, I don't believe the Scandinavian island will be part of NWO

WAFFLE: Things like Windows make it worse, making people believe they cant do it themselves so they put cute buttons up for everything to make it APPEAR easy when in MANY cases it's actually harder.

VIOLA: The rich will cling to their toys, try to keep it all going, and will be very vulnerable to gangs wanting to raid. Where is the first place that you would go to raid if you were a thug in the middle of a devastated city?

WAFFLE: Most everything is only difficult in your mind.

NORSEMAN: You never know Warma.

SPOT: I think we will fare well in the independent thinking in these parts.

VIOLA: After the stores ran out, you'd go to the rich section of town. Better pickings.

WARMA: But I can understand your concern - I believe your government is turning against you, instead of being your servants (as they should).

WAFFLE: Everything is screwed up now. We just got merged to a new bank, and it sucks hard.

VIOLA: Warma, I think Scandinavia will do well, too.

WAFFLE: Just this is lack of people-control, we were FORCED to the new bank automagically, now I have to change banks if I care.

SPOT: Yep, the hearty folks of Scandinavia.

WAFFLE: We weren't asked, we just were moved.

VIOLA: After the shift, when the independent groups have set up their camps, are growing food and finding each other, etc. they will be the strongest.

NORSEMAN: I agree with you Viola about that.

WAFFLE: All to put a few more million in some asshole's worthless bank account.

VIOLA: Likewise, the NWO camps will degenerate, the supplies running out, the number of mouths to feed too many for the hands that can work or know how to be productive. They will have desertion, takeover fights, and disease unattended. Gradually become small yucky places.

SPOT: They will start looking for more.

WAFFLE: That's what I think will happen.

VIOLA: Those who desert will find the better survival groups, be adopted, and in this way the sociological/political landscape will change.

WAFFLE: I don't think, with the way survivors think, the NWO has much of a chance, that is, in the long run.

SPOT: It's not the survivors that will affect the NWO, it will be themselves.

VIOLA: Even if the rich set up strong and well equipped camps, this will happen, as the devastation is so great, world wide, that what they count on will NOT BE THERE FOR THEM

WAFFLE: Yeah. Any suggestions on what materials to make the donut-house out of? think it would be one of the easiest things to make.

SPOT: Concrete like the monolithic dome.

WAFFLE: What about those large sewer pipes, what were they called? Would they flex enough to make a donut shape?

SPOT: Culverts.


SPOT: It would still take a big machine to bend a culvert.

WAFFLE: Yeah :(

WAFFLE: Aren't there large elbow-shaped concrete pipes available?

VIOLA: For instance, there is the threat of reprisal for crimes, which will be gone as the governments will have collapsed.

WAFFLE: You could use 4 of them to make a donut.

WAFFLE: Yeah people will be able to get away with just about any crime.

VIOLA: So the servants of the rich can kill the guy, take his stuff, and not be put into prison, etc. Once they sense they can do this, then all hell breaks lose at the camps of the rich.

SPOT: Explain better Viola.

SPOT: Okay

VIOLA: So this is another thing the NWO is desperate to continue, government control! The net where workers can't get away and can't disobey, etc.

VIOLA: I think probably there will be places where this will be the setup, but mostly not.

WAFFLE: I'll think about it and make a test model. Imagine a slinky, or a group of metal hoops. You could keep it in the garage or basement.

VIOLA: I imagine that after the shift, there will be large numbers of survivors just at the outskirts of cities.

SPOT: Like a dryer vent hose?

VIOLA: These will be fruitful places for those wanting slave labor to collect their workers.

WAFFLE: Exactly. You could bend it into a donut.

VIOLA: I'll bet that those not able to work will be left to starve and die, however.

WAFFLE: Then wrap the heavy saran wrap around the thing, a whole bunch of it. Then you could wrap canvas around it, etc.

SPOT: The outskirts would be the most obvious place for folks to hang out. Waiting for rescue.

NORSEMAN: What do you mean Waffle?

VIOLA: Waffle, don't these metal culvert pipes come such that they do not bend?

WAFFLE: The saran wrap on the inside might help keep water out etc. I'm not talking about culverts any more. I think they probably don't bend much.

VIOLA: I think those pipes are the very best for that vicious hour of the pole shift. As long as the winds can't blow THROUGH the pipe, then not so hot :-).

WAFFLE: Does anyone get what I mean, it's like a collapsible house, sort of.

SPOT: You could build your doughnut with concrete and rebar.

WAFFLE: Viola the pipe would be great if shaped into a donut.

SPOT: Yes, I understood what you meant Waffle.

WAFFLE: Yeah, but I'm thinking even for a last-minute tent or something.

VIOLA: Waffle, but is it? That's not how they are today, right? Why would a pipe be shaped like that, as it would not sent anything anywhere, just go in a circle. Very durable during the shift, though, for sure.

WAFFLE: The metal hoops could keep it strong from stuff flying around, but concrete would still be better.

NORSEMAN: Last minute tent could be a good idea.

WAFFLE: I think a donut would be as strong as a dome.

VIOLA: My thinking is that folks should have a shallow trench covered by a metal roof, sheet metal of any kind, dug at the last minute, during the week of stopped rotation.

WAFFLE: Yeah I know you probably can't buy one like that.

SPOT: Waffle is right about elbow shaped culverts. You could put 4 together and make a donut.

VIOLA: They should put sod or earth over the metal roof so it won't lift during the high winds. And maybe if it was dug earlier and the sod had taken root, the very best!


VIOLA: They go into this trench, only shallow enough to allow them to lay down, must crawl into it, at the hour when things start to move, the crust starts to shift.

WAFFLE: I think the concrete elbows are notched to fit together but then you have problems with leaking water

SPOT: That is probably where most folks will go. A trench.

VIOLA: They have shifts where folks stay awake, watching for this to happen, watching the sky, etc.


VIOLA: Meanwhile they stay in tents or existing housing.

WAFFLE: I see.

VIOLA: Afterwards, they construct quick homes, perhaps temporary homes, in tents or straw bale housing or some such. Set up hydroponics gardens, etc., or live off the gardens they had already planted prior to the shift.

WAFFLE: So how long do we estimate again that they will have to STAY in the trench?

SPOT: A few hours?

VIOLA: Waffle, an hour. During this hour or less, the crust starts to move, then after a few minutes lets say 10-20 minutes, the stopping starts, plates slamming into each other.

WAFFLE: So the shelters are only needed for an hour? Or just at that point in time?

VIOLA: In Anne Kirkwood's book, Mary's Message to the World I believe its called, she says something like the stars will begin to dance in the sky, then the earth will slurp over onto its side. So, look for the moon on the move, the stars jiggling around or moving, etc.


NORSEMAN: Kind of signs.

WAFFLE: So there is going to be a big jolt etc. I need to read up on it more, forgot things.

SPOT: That will be weird all right.

VIOLA: Waffle, correct. This is why they should be only enough to withstand high winds, not affected by earthquakes (in a shallow trench which has many exits, no entrapment will occur) and avoid firestorms, do not have a flammable roof.


VIOLA: The worst thing that will happen in a trench is the sides compressed together, but surface dirt does not move during a quake, just jolts .

WAFFLE: OK, don't you think it will be necessary to "strap in" as it were? So you don't knock your head on the side of your place.

SPOT: That would give you no flexibility.

VIOLA: The effect of quakes is on stuff that can't jiggle, has no flexibility. If you go out into the country after an earthquake, the only thing that seems to be affected are the occasional old tree that snapped and fell as it was jerked back and forth.

WAFFLE: Oh, gotcha. But maybe hard hats/helmets?

SPOT: Good idea.

VIOLA: Waffle, if the trench is shallow, then a person would only be thrown a few inches, they ARE strapped in, in essence.


SPOT: Hockey uniforms:-)


WAFFLE: I guess dirt wouldn't hurt much.

VIOLA: Friction from the dirt floor of the trench, and bumping into those lying next to them, perhaps. Not far to "fall" so to speak.

WAFFLE: But if someone made a dome from concrete it might, who knows. Yeah I get it.

SPOT: If your supplies are stored to build your dome, you can do it after the PS

WAFFLE: Is it possible for gravity to be disrupted enough as to make people fly out of their shelters

VIOLA: Spot, if you're above ground or in a room, then you can get thrown. I recall reading of the 1906 earthquakes in San Francisco, which were Richter 9, that a woman ran outside her cabin and saw the chimney swaying, and was knocked off her feet onto the ground.

VIOLA: In the 1989 Loma Prieta out here in San Franciso, folks crossing the Golden Gate bridge said that they suddenly found themselves in another car lane!. The car just got shifted, moved.

SPOT: I see your point.

VIOLA: Fortunately, everyone was in shock and took their foot off the gas pedal :-). Few accidents.

WAFFLE: So we won't be thrown upward though?

VIOLA: Folks in their homes in 1989, and this was only a 7.1 or so, said the furniture walked across the room toward them. Folks looking out their windows could seen waves in the ground, ground waves, and their swimming pools showed a funny wavelet rippple, characteristic of earth movements during quakes.

SPOT: So, more like sound waves

VIOLA: Waffle, if you're on a plate that is being forced up, YES, up in the air and then the inevitable, DOWN (ouch).

WAFFLE: Indeed.

NORSEMAN: I don't know much about quakes, never experienced one.

WAFFLE: So maybe hard hats ARE a good idea. :) football helmets.

VIOLA: But in a shallow trench, covered by a metal roof that is not heavy (in case it collapses on you), you will not be thrown UP very far either!

SPOT: Hard hats are not a good idea.

WAFFLE: People NEED to know where underground mining is so they don't build near are not?

SPOT: Good point Waffle

WAFFLE: my old high school was completely over a mine, held up by a few large pillars underground

VIOLA: Biggest worry on the shallow trench would be that the metal roof would not be secured on the edges, like with sod roots, and would life during the high winds, exposing the poor suckers underneath. Then they would be thrown about, be open to the fire storms if they occur there, etc.

SPOT: Helmets might be, but not hard hats. It could snap your neck if laying down.

WAFFLE: That thing is GONE if an earthquake happens, unless its like to far down or something.

VIOLA: Firestorms are rare, but when they happen are bad news, so folks should ASSUME this and have either a metal roof or perhaps sod on top of a wooden roof - point it, not burnable.

WAFFLE: How do they snap your neck just wondering.

VIOLA: Bad angle? Say your body goes one way and your head another.

SPOT: They are meant to protect from above, not like a football helmet from all directions. It would not stay on anyway.