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icon 14-Sep-97

Note: it is a general Troubled Times policy to change the names of IRC participants to screen names and remove personal discussions that occurred during the chat in the interests of privacy.

AMURO: For building sites, etc. everybody is thinking of doing this independently right, just with their own family? Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to organize bigger groups? That's what we're going to do.

VIOLA: Amuro, this has been a continuous theme throughout TT.

NORSEMAN: Bigger groups will be discovered sooner. Small groups are better, right?

VIOLA: I'm sure it will happen, but as to whether TT ought to be doing this is a question for the following reasons.

SPOT: I think bigger groups will just happen.

VIOLA: Folks will find each other and form groups without our help #1

AMURO: Really? We were just thinking that, OK, let's say one person gets injured seriously, if there's only one or two left and they aren't as capable as the one that got injured, they're almost helpless.

VIOLA: If we get into this activity, then the bulk of our efforts might get diverted into this #2 Every second that we spend coordinating folks to a site, settling disputes, etc., is a second NOT spent on finding solution sets #3.

AMURO: Good point.

SPOT: Yes, it builds independence, and that is what we want.

VIOLA: Norseman mentioned #4, there is no way to prevent STS from joining and doing strong arm tactics at the point of crisis, the pole shift.

AMURO: But, how is the average family supposed to build everything that'll be needed? It seems that to build a structure to survive the pole shift it would be more than a single family could handle.

NORSEMAN: Right, that's important, that people learn how to survive on there own, empower them.

SPOT: CNN is a good topic, don't you think?

VIOLA: #5 as the site will be known, it could be that an entirely different group arrives at the last minute and kicks out the original group that worked so hard.

NORSEMAN: Yep, that will be a good topic.

SPOT: Most survival will be a one on one thing, groups will form after the PS.

VIOLA: Now, this is NOT to say that forming groups is not a good ideas, as it IS!

NORSEMAN: I think that Amuro doesn't mean hundreds of people, but a couple of families. Not one family but a couple of them.

VIOLA: I've always recommended that folks keep to the group, their own small group, just where they intend to go and that they even have plans.

SPOT: I have already planned a partnership with friends on survival during the pole shift.

NORSEMAN: Spot: so what's your point of view now on the CNN thing? Will we get in the news?

SPOT: You bet!

VIOLA: I think even at the last few weeks, groups will be forming or increasing their numbers is guided ways.

AMURO: Well, we hadn't decided on a final size yet, but, we were thinking of bringing in 50 people, but being able to accommodate for say, 300, the remainder being stragglers with nowhere else to go.

VIOLA: By this I mean, the STO aliens will guide them to find each other due to The Call, etc.


VIOLA: Groups from the city might find a retired farmer with land, etc., a surprise to them both.

SPOT: A survival site of 40 is what goes through my mind. Mostly children.

NORSEMAN: 40 people isn't that much, but enough. In that way people could divide their tasks, etc.

NORSEMAN: and Spot, you're right.. Children are important.

VIOLA: 300 is a good number, a good community size. The Cherokee Indians used to limit communities to about that size as then it was a true democracy, not too large for a single voice to get shut out. Also, I understand this limited the spread of disease among their people should it spring up.

AMURO: Also, we were thinking, with a large group and a well planned effort, I don't think raiders would be a problem. I mean, let's look at it, there won't be TOO many of them, and these are unorganized STS just roaming around for food or whatever. They're not going to be in well-planned groups or anything, and I doubt they'll be too big (because they probably can't stand working together), so we were thinking a small.

SPOT: Very good Amuro.

VIOLA: Amuro, I personally think that raiders should be assumed to be a problem at ANY size of your group. If you advertise yourself, your site, you can expect unwanted visitors.

AMURO: Good point, I shouldn't have assumed anything.

NORSEMAN: Weapons, guns etc., they will probably (well I think they will) use weapons.

AMURO: Yeah, I agree, but that's why I have always talked about being completely underground, in a well hidden area.

SPOT: So will I.

VIOLA: Imagine a group of lazy, sadistic, self focused petty criminals, eating the last can of beans from a grocery store.

AMURO: Well, we were planning on having a small amount of weapons to use in defense if just such a situation arose.

VIOLA: One of them says they remember hearing about plans for a survival site that was going to grow their own food indoors, out of sight, and where it was located. They grab their guns, knives, and clubs and set out. You want these kinds of folks visiting you?

SPOT: Nope

NORSEMAN: I guess people will need weapons, but only if really necessary. They are dangerous etc., only use them if the need really arises to use them, right?

VIOLA: Norseman, the statistics on guns is that you are more likely to get shot by a friend or family members, a gun more likely to be used on the family than a stranger. Tempers will flare within a group, or someone will go nuts, and this is as much a danger as a raid.

SPOT: Territories and countries differ on weapons and what they are. I was raised with guns. We have plenty. And my children know how to use them already.

AMURO: I see your point, although, we weren't really going to be building in the same area we'll be collecting people. For instance, we're going to start giving seminars on this soon, but then we'll move across the country, making sure not to get too big so the big boys don't "take care" of us, and then after going around for a while, spreading the word a bit, and getting a group of people ..

NORSEMAN: I know what you mean..

VIOLA: Amuro, re safety and keeping the spot hidden and a secret among the group - I have even advocated bait and switch.

AMURO: Ah, good point!

VIOLA: By this I mean, have one member of the group order stuff in the mail for the group as though THEY were the site setup place, but that person gives the stuff to another to transport to the real spot, etc.

AMURO: That is an excellent idea.

VIOLA: Mail orders will be watched to see where sites are being setup, by the government, for instance.

SPOT: Good cop, bad cop.

VIOLA: There will be some generals trying to feed their damn troops too, and these can become STS gangs pretty readily, my thoughts.

NORSEMAN: I think you're right about that Viola

AMURO: Yeah, I agree.


VIOLA: Its not a bad idea for a group to have a backup site picked out too, and stash supplies in more than one place. One can always go pick that stuff up later, so it won't be a waste.

AMURO: Yeah, that's a good idea.

NORSEMAN: Let's talk about CNN.

VIOLA: What happens if you are arriving at your site and find a group of STS in the area? Don't want to set up where they can find you, so you go to the backup site.

NORSEMAN: God thinking Viola

VIOLA: Then, after the STS go off looking to raid, you step in there and dig up your stash.

VIOLA: Norseman, good topic CNN, just wanted to finish Amuro's good topic too :-).



VIOLA: I don't know if posting on the CNN message boards will get TT in the news, but it sure can't hurt in this regard.

VIOLA: They state they can quote from the postings without needing to ask, right up front about that.

NORSEMAN: Right, as I think that people will notice the postings.

VIOLA: Also, if someone spies the 12th Planet, starts asking about that, then the subject might be ripe for a news piece right off.

SPOT: I think that most that post on CNN are not just one person at a time, but groups under one name.

VIOLA: Did everyone read that list serve posting about the Art Bell episode?

NORSEMAN: Yes I read it

SPOT: Yes.

NORSEMAN: Viola: did you read what I posted, from the art bell site?

VIOLA: If that isn't a sign that the coming earth changes ARE going to be talked about, I don't know what is!

AMURO: Pretty interesting huh? Even though it was a hoax, I enjoyed listening to it, the guy was a good actor ;-)

VIOLA: Norseman, not yet no, just read the original posting transcribing the caller's statements. What did the Art Bell site say?

AMURO: Oh, I went to Art's site, and saw that they had explained the failure as genuine, not of any unusual origin.

SPOT: CNN folks love to change the subject don't they?

VIOLA: Due to the number of people who truly believe their government is lying to them, MOST folks will NOT think it a hoax no matter if they have the guy confess that on CNN during prime time :-).

NORSEMAN: Viola: the call is on the Art Bell site, a transcript of it.

VIOLA: They will say 1) how do we know this is the guy, 2) he was tortured to say that, etc.

AMURO: Yeah, I agree. Art Bell fans do tend to be on the suspicious side.

VIOLA: Norseman, we should point to that Art Bell site from TT The Word section, although I think Art may clean his site off from time to time and not keep it there permanently. He's done that before. If one wants it, they should put it on their own site, I've found.

SPOT: It still just amazes me, how humanity is. Sometimes I stop and shake my head and wonder.

AMURO: Well, you can always link to the real audio archive of that call, which is on the audio net, permanently.

NORSEMAN: Think so too. It will make people think. Also because this guy mentioned something about disasters.

AMURO: Yeah, he was pretty much on the money, about what's coming down the line, convincing too.

VIOLA: Lets put it this way, hoax or not, this type of thing will get the public going! It has that element of doubt, for 2 reasons - the guy stated he was recently discharged on medical (having gone nuts?) and also he didn't ID himself.

NORSEMAN: I think that more of this kind of thing will happen.

VIOLA: Since the Z's said this was staged by the government, then this is a really good sign!


VIOLA: We can expect a hell of a lot of this type of stuff, increasingly so as the time nears. The next thing will be that our site gets pointed to as an example of what folks CAN DO to help themselves.

NORSEMAN: Yep, I think that that will happen too.

VIOLA: Norseman, absolutely!


VIOLA: I've been saying this to the group periodically - get ready for the flood of interest!

SPOT: I am getting ready.

VIOLA: One reason for forming TEAMS early this year is to get practice at this, as this is a way to spin off the energy from a large group of active members effectively.

AMURO: Well, if something major does happen to California next year, I bet we will have just that.

VIOLA: Amuro, another thing that wider public acceptance of the notion will spin off WILL be groups forming. Its a natural. More folks will want to spend their energy looking for others to join than anything else, my thoughts.


VIOLA: Take an accountant and his house wife. What will they likely do, start growing worms? They will seek out partners who know gardening, or plumbers or some such. This will be their first thoughts.


SPOT: It will depend on what they need at the time.


VIOLA: Not just informal announcements, like the Art Bell thing that just happened, but natural disasters will get folks going.

AMURO: Yeah, but it's kind of depressing now, when you try to tell people. we have a synopsis that we made for all our friends and loved ones, and after sending off and ungodly number of these, I've gotten one response, and my father, none.

VIOLA: I'm talking about disasters like domino earthquakes, where they ripple around the world, for instance, never having happened before in man's memory, etc. If folks can say, this is REALLY weird, then they will stop thinking global warming, etc.

SPOT: Coming soon at a theater near you. :-))


VIOLA: Amuro, this is the standard reaction, even on international message boards.

AMURO: Look at what's happening all ready! The percent of change in the pacific ocean is up 450% from last year, guns are now banned throughout Australia, and you know war's coming to the middle east.

VIOLA: Folks just don't want to believe. Their first thought is that if such a thing were to happen, be on the horizon, that the government would WARN them.

VIOLA: It takes a bit of mulling around to realize what would happen IF the government did that. And then they realize the government WOULD NOT warn them, and why.

AMURO: yeah, we all know about denial, unfortunately, but I have to agree with you, as time passes, I'm sure even my skeptic friends will come around.

SPOT: Plant seeds and move on.

VIOLA: Amuro, it can happen in floods, sudden interest, almost in a panic, insistent on moving quickly, so that it goes from cold to hot.

SPOT: Tell them about it, and move on too the next person.

VIOLA: We should be prepared for this press and push as much as anything else, else we will lose our organization, our steady growth, etc.

VIOLA: Our solution sets are no where near complete!

NORSEMAN: Right, tell them about the facts etc. Right, we still have a lot to do.


VIOLA: Even up to the last minute, we will be fine tuning them, and should keep calm and steady about what we are doing. As long as we have our web site(s) folks can find us, etc.

AMURO: Oh, although, before we leave this topic, if I may offer one piece of advice, when telling friends, I find the book "Mary's Message To The World" by Annie Kirkwood is a good way to approach people about this, because it has all of the information right, but comes from a known and trusted source, Mother Mary. By known and trusted, I mean to other people, they don't know about the zetas, etc.

VIOLA: Amuro, I have that book, bought it even though I'm far from a Catholic! For some reason just felt impelled to pick it up at the book store :-). Super book! She describes the changes very accurately!

AMURO: Really? Wow, yeah, it's good isn't it?

NORSEMAN: I never read that book.

AMURO: Yeah, "tilting of the earth", is that amazing or what? ;-)

SPOT: When was it written?

VIOLA: One thing that may happen if we get hot is that members of TT may get asked for an interview.

AMURO: It's good. Another good one I recently read was "Cosmic Voyage" by Courtney Brown. he's got a lot of good info. there and offers a positive outlook on the future, to those who are worried about the pole shift.

VIOLA: Amuro, and tidal waves, I believe she has that in there too.

AMURO: Yeah, she has everything. Even magnetic deviation, etc. too

AMURO: I'm utilizing it constantly with my Catholic friends.

VIOLA: I think this woman is a genuine channel, no doubt.


VIOLA: We should also expect, though, with any publicity that we get, that there will be the flip side of the coin - discrediting and disinfo.

NORSEMAN: Yup, right Viola.

VIOLA: For one thing, the element of doubt will require that any message given out, like the Art Bell thing, has to be balanced by something that folks can cling to and say "it isn't true". They don't want panic to spread.

SPOT: Right, that will be the first tactic used.

VIOLA: So, if we get media attention, we'll also get slams against us of some kind. We should just be braced for that.

SPOT: Getting used to that. :-))


VIOLA: Spot, what caused you to go to CNN message board in the first place, what was going through your mind when you did, if I may ask?

AMURO: Yep, although, I wonder about the media, I mean, it's obvious that the media's heavily controlled, so, do you think they'd allow us to get that far? I mean TV.

VIOLA: And Norseman, I gather than you had been a visitor too! What was going through your mind when you did?

SPOT: I have no Idea. I was looking at the weather one day and found myself answering some guy. One thing led to another.

NORSEMAN: I didn't post on the CNN board.

VIOLA: Amuro, the media IS controlled, but the orders are changing! Take the March 13, 1997 Arizona sightings, for instance, a mothership and state wide witnesses, like Mexico City with the number of videos taken, etc.

NORSEMAN: Spot: you where directed to the message board right ?

AMURO: Yeah, I see what you mean.

VIOLA: It took CNN and USA Today 3 months to get around to reporting this, and this 3 month delay is the best evidence of the cover-up and media control that I know!

SPOT: I felt it was something I should do, I was not sure if it was right, but I thought I should do it any way.

VIOLA: The Z's said that the delay was due to the shift in orders, and folks constantly double checking that the new orders were REALLY what they said, etc. :-).

AMURO: Haha, good point :-)

VIOLA: So, the orders are changing!

NORSEMAN: Yep and that might be also the cause of what happened on the Art Bell show, right?

AMURO: That's an interesting possibility.

AMURO: I certainly do hope to hear more like that.

VIOLA: Norseman, right, the Arizona thing is just saying aliens are here and it isn't Independence Day, etc. The Art Bell thing is the real break through, as this is saying warning about the coming earth changes will appears TOO!

SPOT: I read the CNN message boards now and FORCE myself to stay out.

VIOLA: One thing I have been trying to do, and did this with my very first posting on CNN message board, is mix in the solution with the warning.

SPOT: I tried to set a program to lead them to TT.

VIOLA: Blend them in. For instance, they were talking about sitting in their basements, eating twinkies, waiting for the pole shift to happen and watching TV.

SPOT: I tried to use their humor against them.

VIOLA: This was all a result of Spot's postings there. They were wondering what TV station they could bring in, after the shift, due to satellite changes. I said, torn out of the skies, etc., and in the same breath say "we at TT are recommending Internet by short wave, using Moon Bounce, a technique actually used in Australia from time to time".

SPOT: They are still talking because of the first postings.

VIOLA: Solution sets need to be put out there, as this turns panic to action.

VIOLA: Good for CNN for supporting this stuff. They are the media leaders, and big enough that they don't get their stings pulled by any but the REALLY BIG guys (by that I mean MJ12) If Ted Turner decides to do something, then it gets done, etc.


SPOT: I AM impressed with CNN. They are still letting you post. I had problems for a while.

NORSEMAN: Well maybe that dream that I had 2 years ago will become real in one of these years?

VIOLA: I can just imagine MJ12 trying to get some newspapers or TV stations to put something in the news, like trying to herd cats, as they say.

AMURO: What dream was that?

NORSEMAN: Saw Larry King talking about the 12th Planet (10th Planet)

VIOLA: Suppression is much easier! Its an easy rule to following - DON'T talk about UFO's aliens, etc.

SPOT: Herd cats, I can't get one cat to do what it's supposed to. :-)

AMURO: Ahhhh, gotcha. But incidentally, has anyone had the "armada" dream, with all of the various ships?

VIOLA: The opposite, TO talk about it, is harder, as now they say, "well, this is what I've drafted, does it go too far" and "are you sure you really want me to say this?"

NORSEMAN: Armada dream?

VIOLA: Isn't Larry King a CNN guy? He was advertised on the CNN message board.

AMURO: It's a mass dream. A LOT of people have had it, including my father and I

NORSEMAN: Yep. he is. Amuro: a lot of UFO's flying over?

AMURO: It's a dream where there is a small armada of alien ships of all types overhead, and sometimes a few of them form a diamond shape.

SPOT: MJ12 consists of humans like all the rest. They know as an individual that they have no choice but to accept what is going to happen.


NORSEMAN: I once had such a dream.

VIOLA: Amuro, really! Yes, we've got a few in TT who have. I think someone mentioned helping folks injured onto a ship, etc. My son has too, a giant wave coming toward him, and ships just ahead of this picking certain folks up.

AMURO: Really? Wow. Well, we're thinking that this will happen BEFORE the pole shift, but I could be wrong and it might be the lift we're seeing.

VIOLA: Amuro, just before the shift is what it seems to be, yes.


SPOT: I have not seen any ships from the outside. I only rescue from the inside.

VIOLA: If we get a flood of folks coming onto TT, then I will be trying to get some established leaders to pull them aside and work with them in TEAMS.

NORSEMAN: Good thinking.

VIOLA: This doesn't mean that posting on the list serve will not happen, it just means that some established leaders on the list serve will be compiling the info and prepping it for posting on the web site. For instance, if a bunch would come in with a strong interest in safe water. Could be that a TEAM is formed, distillation tried at home, results prepped for posting, and the leader passing me the web package. High activity on the list serve could easily run away from me, and we don't want valuable contributions to get overlooked.


VIOLA: I would take a survey among the leaders, those who we know, as to what areas they would be willing to monitor.

WAFFLE: would anyone happen to know if regular tap water keeps well if packaged, lets say in aluminum-type capri-sun like packaging?

VIOLA: Then, for instance, if any posting on Safe Water were posting, THAT leader would scan for these postings and collect that info, contact that poster, work behind the scenes, etc., and deliver good stuff to be web wrapped periodically.

WAFFLE: Or some other cheap container, like even wax-coated paper or something?

VIOLA: I hope it works that way anyway!

AMURO: Yeah, sounds good, Viola

NORSEMAN: Waffle: I don't know.

SPOT: Vacuum, like seal-a-meal may work.

WAFFLE: Am I off topic? :)

VIOLA: Since we have a couple newcomers to the list serve with us this morning, let me ask your impressions of the list serve when you first joined 1) was it what you expected, and 2) if not, what did you find that was unexpected?

VIOLA: Waffle, certain liquid in aluminum cans absorbs the aluminum too much, does it not?

WAFFLE: Don't know.

SPOT: Plastic will do the same.

WAFFLE: Just like to consider the idea.

VIOLA: Is there anything that you were looking for, from the list serve, that you did NOT find there when you joined?

SPOT: But plastic is the best.

AMURO: Well, let's see here, I joined about, hmmmm, I guess it was a month or two ago, maybe a month and a half, so, I guess I'm a newcomer. And as for the list serve, it's been pretty much what I expected, and that's been great, except I did expect it to be slightly bigger, as far as the number of members.

NORSEMAN: Yep, I read something once about aluminum, something about causing some aging disease.

WAFFLE: Well I figured since they package Capri-Sun (or did? do they still sell it?) in aluminum bags it might be a worthwhile idea. What about using regular tap water instead of bottled.

VIOLA: Amuro, we have about 60 members, steady growth, but only about 20 truly active at this time. 30 voting members (10 not active at this time).

AMURO: Tap water? Good God, man, that's insane! But seriously, tap water is bad news.

VIOLA: I guess more than 100 have joined, lurked, and moved on. They read the web site, I'm sure, just don't stay on the list serve.

WAFFLE: The idea is that you could hide them, keep them in your pocket, separate the lot so that if some asshole stole your water, you'd still have some :)

AMURO: My father and I have been into alternative health for a while, and trust me, don't drink ANYTHING but pure, distilled water.

SPOT: Tap water will do, but it still contains a lot of impurities like chlorine. It would be best to work on solutions to create good water later.

AMURO: And if you want to make colloidal silver, ozone, etc., you need distilled water. Tap water screws up colloidal silver.

WAFFLE: I think I'm immune to tap water, I never could tell the difference between it and bottled.

AMURO: Well, you can't tell the difference, but it's there.

VIOLA: Well mainly a bit of stored water will only last a week or so! Then what! You have to get into distilling and quick!

WAFFLE: I picture some guy at the Evian (reverse = naive) factory filling bottles from his office water fountain.

NORSEMAN: Spot: I think you're right.. I usually drink bottled water.

SPOT: I drink filtered water at home by choice.

WAFFLE: So basically distillation machines or filters would be more worthwhile to build.

SPOT: Yes.


SPOT: Lead will be a serious problem later.

VIOLA: Waffle, that's one solution set that I feel comfortable with. There are a LOT of water sources, from harvesting fog to dousing to find underground water, but ALL of it needs to be distilled after the pole shift for a couple decades at least.

ATOM: Distillation machine is a relatively simple thing to make, and effective.

WAFFLE: Is urine therapy bullshit? Charcoal? Oh that's a filter. Never mind. All you have to do is boil the stuff then run it through something to condense it again, right?

SPOT: Urine therapy doesn't bother me.

VIOLA: Waffle, charcoal is NOT distillation! Distilling gets the lead out, heavy metals that the volcanic dust will put into the water.

ATOM: Waffle: right.

NORSEMAN: Waffle: I don't know if it's bullshit.. But I won't drink my own urine, or another person urine.

VIOLA: Waffle, yes, steam hitting a condenser.

WAFFLE: The urine thing seems logical and all, I've drank it before without harm. Mix it with kool aid and you can't taste it.

SPOT: Geez, Norseman. :-)


ATOM: However, distilled water is not drinkable! You need to add things to it, else you can have problems.

WAFFLE: I think urine is sterile, and contains stuff that your body needs anyhow but has excess of, not really waste just excess.

SPOT: Pee-aid, that's new. :-)

AMURO: Whoa whoa whoa, distilled water is the ONLY 100% pure water.

VIOLA: Urine therapy seems to have something to it, for sure. I think these health matters are all relative. They sound like yucky solutions but when you are really sick, maybe they don't seem so yucky if you have no other choice.

AMURO: You can be sure of that. It is most definitely drinkable.

NORSEMAN: Amuro: guess you're right about that.

WAFFLE: I thought it was gross, but after reading stuff and you put it into perspective and it's not that bad. People eat bologna, and when you put that into perspective it's very gross. :)

VIOLA: Atom, explain re distilled water? What things do you need to add?

SPOT: Hey! I like bologna.

ATOM: No, distilled water is 100% pure water, but your body is not used to it. It needs minerals, etc. in it, else your cells can be damaged.

WAFFLE: Whacky. What do you filter it through to get minerals, dirt or something?

AMURO: I disagree, we drink nothing but distilled water constantly. And in fact, if you drink distilled water in large quantities, like 10 glasses a day, you can actually increase your health dramatically.

VIOLA: Ah, but Atom, if one drinks and eats at the same time, getting the minerals from the food, all mixed in the stomach, then should be OK, right?

AMURO: You can get all the minerals, etc. your body needs from a plethora of sources.

WAFFLE: Maybe filters might be better than distillers?

ATOM: Bottled water is water from pipe is not distilled water.

WAFFLE: Especially for the short term?

NORSEMAN: Atom: right.

VIOLA: Waffle, no no! One should assume that any soil outside during the pole shift might be contaminated with volcanic dust. Lead poisoning is a big worry. After awhile, the lead washes down due to all the rain.

ATOM: You drink distilled water? The ones you buy in bottles on gas station?

AMURO: The distilled water filters your blood system and your liver and can cure many medical conditions.

NORSEMAN: There is a difference.

WAFFLE: Oh. I though distilled water was only for your steam iron and radiator.

ATOM: Yes, I've heard that but many doctors would disagree. Guess, I'll need to try.

AMURO: No, distilled water is excellent for drinking, but I understand your thought that it would be only for steam iron, etc.

WAFFLE: Let's just start bottling urine. kill two birds with one stone. (joking)

SPOT: Yuk!!

AMURO: There's just so much health info. out there that people don't know. It's the damn AMA, FDA, etc.


VIOLA: We have a posting in TT about cattle dropping over dead in New Zealand after the last eruption of their volcano. Too much fluoride I think, in the dust landing on the grass they ate. Killed them! And this is only one mineral of many that might be a problem.

NORSEMAN: Amuro: you can find a lot of info on the web if you search for it.. Yahoo, etc.

AMURO: Yeah, but, what kind of info. are you talking about? What do you mean? Oh, health info.


AMURO: Well, you're right, but there's even more out there than you know about

NORSEMAN: Alternative medicines etc.

AMURO: Things you would think incurable ARE NOT. That's what I meant by "we've got some BIG surprises for you guys coming". Hope you're ready to add a few more sections to the TT site. ;-)

WAFFLE: I've actually tried the urine thing for my acne. Stress aggravates it but putting the stuff on your face for the past couple days seems to help. It helps the itching in the short term and I think it's being reduced somewhat.

LAZARUS: If you're searching on the web, go to WebFerret which runs all engines simultaneously in parallel

VIOLA: One thing we DO need on TT is a handy dandy method of removing lead from folks. What if folks wander into your survival site, and they've already GOT lead poisoning from drinking ground water!

AMURO: Hummm, I've never tried WebFerret, but I have tried MetaCrawler, which is also a multi-search engine, and I find that to be pretty good.

WAFFLE: I'll look it up.

VIOLA: Web searches are great! The lazy man's way of going to the library and digging around :-). Lazy woman's way, rather.

NORSEMAN: Lazarus, I use that program too, WebFerret

SPOT: It seams to me that lead would be almost impossible to remove from the body.

WAFFLE: I kind of disagree about the stuff on the TT site about the cube being the strongest shape.. I thought the equilateral tetrahedron made from 4 triangles was the strongest shape, hence the geodesic dome, etc. Maybe urine therapy helps lead poisoning. some people say it helps cancer, etc.

NORSEMAN: Spot: I think there are ways to remove heavy metals from the body, but I doubt that will be possible after the pole shift.

VIOLA: Spot, I know they treat it! It's not considered a permanent problem. If allowed to damage the brain and nerves, THIS is permanent, as the brain will not regenerate. Norseman, in our solution sets, we need to HAVE ways that folks can implement! Like manufacturing Vitamin C from things at hand, we need to figure out how to do this and post the solutions!

SPOT: Hmmm, maybe I am thinking of mercury. That is deadly, the Mad Hatter, etc.

VIOLA: Mercury is bad news, for sure!

NORSEMAN: Viola: I know what you mean, so we need to search for info on how to clean the body from lead etc.

SPOT: Lead will be a big issue I believe.

NORSEMAN: Right about the mercury, some people also have problems because of amalgam.

LAZARUS: How about testing water for lead?

AMURO: I can think of a couple methods that would probably work with lead-removal, but they take a while to explain, so I'll wait on it.

VIOLA: Norseman, I'm sure there is a way, it basically would be diet, I think, a type of diet that pulls the heavy metals from the body as they are missing from the blood stream, perhaps, and then they get flushed.

VIOLA: Carrie, we are talking about safe water, lead and mercury poisoning, and how these metals can be removed from the body once poisoning occurs. Do you know if there is a medical treatment for this?

AMURO: Have any of you heard of ozone therapy?


NORSEMAN: It has to do with injections right? Ozone therapy?

WAFFLE: Ozone?

VIOLA: I had a vision of the condition of folks wandering about after the PS, a type of day dream. The gloom was so heavy it was like just before dark in the evening. A couple, woman carrying a baby, young boy about 5, walked into a camp.

WAFFLE: What are the symptoms of lead poisoning again?

VIOLA: They were given something like bean soup and a glass of fake milk (smashed larva, I suspect) to drink.

NORSEMAN: Viola: seems a bit like that logo made for the Inc.

SPOT: Beans will clean you out in a hurry!!

AMURO: Yeah, that's what I meant by the really good health info. being relatively unknown. Colloidal silver was just the beginning, there's A LOT of other AMAZING health solutions that exist, that people are completely unaware of. Ozone is not injections, it's taken in a liquid form, but like I said before, I'll write up a long e-mail about it.

NORSEMAN: Smashed larva(?), yuck.. But anyway if it helps to survive, then don't think about it, drink it :)

VIOLA: The baby drank the milk and would not let the glass go, accepted the odd taste. The boy complained about the "weird" taste. The boy was pale, could not hold his food well, and they had to give him a lead removal treatment. This was the vision, that lead poisoning would be COMMON!

AMURO: Ozone therapy has done some amazing things, so that could very well solve the lead problem, and if not, well, have any of you heard of Dr. Robert Beck?

VIOLA: Lead poisoning = poor nervous control, uncoordinated, lose of appetite, I think. Mental retardation occur after awhile too, brain damage.

WAFFLE: Make sure children eat regular nutritious meals, since more lead is absorbed on an empty stomach. Make sure children's diets contain plenty of iron and calcium: Examples of foods high in iron are liver, fortified cereal, cooked beans, spinach, and raisins. Examples of foods high in calcium are milk, yogurt, cheese, and cooked greens.

VIOLA: Amuro, Dr. Robert Beck deals in lead poisoning?

CARRIE: Yes, there are treatments available. Will have to look them up. I know that both types of poisoning cause nephritis.

NORSEMAN: Carrie: okay, do that.. I am sure you'll find the right info. You have the background etc.

VIOLA: Maybe that IS the way to treat lead poisoning. I know that if one is low on calcium, in the diet, it gets pulled from the bones and put into the blood stream.

NORSEMAN: I will try to search for information on it.. maybe there is on the www

AMURO: No, not just one area of health. This guy is BIG! He's an ingenious man, whose made some discoveries that are going to blow your mind and solve nearly every medical problem you're grappling with. The only reason I haven't explained anything here is that these are long, complicated explanations and like I said, it requires a long e-mail, but you have no idea what can be cured. For example, AIDS?

CARRIE: Children are more prone to lead and mercury poisoning than adults.

VIOLA: Carrie, mainly we need to be able to tell folks WHAT to do if they or their loved ones have such poisoning. Steps to take when medical treatment is not available. Do they soak in a special bath, purge the system in some way, eat a special diet, etc.

NORSEMAN: Carrie: guess you're right about the children.

WAFFLE: The diet would be extremely important it would seem.

VIOLA: Carrie, they eat more for their tiny bodies, for one, and they often eat what has been laying around.

VIOLA: I had my little granddaughter for a visit, and she tried to eat my cactus :-).

VIOLA: Amuro, we're really picky about putting solution sets on the web site if they are considered "unproven" or hypothetical.

AMURO: These are not unproven or hypothetical at all.

NORSEMAN: Viola: right.. they should be proven.

AMURO: They are 100% proven and in use today

VIOLA: Reason for this is that we don't want to be labeled a "kook" site.

AMURO: I am not joking.

NORSEMAN: Viola: right.

VIOLA: I mean, we're considered kooky as we're taking a pole shift seriously, but beyond that we are trying to be really straight.

AMURO: OK, if you want, I'll quickly explain how a very amazing device called the blood electrolysis device has been around and able to cure a wide variety of so-called incurable diseases since the late 1800's.

VIOLA: Colloidal Silver and Urine therapy are long standing treatments, over centuries and in many countries, etc.

AMURO: OK, are you all familiar with the reverse transcriptase enzyme?

WAFFLE: I believe it.

VIOLA: Amuro, great! Looking forward to your posting!

AMURO: The reverse transcriptase enzyme is what allows a virus to enter a human cell and reproduce.

WAFFLE: If you cant make money off it it's made unavailable. Like urine, "oh, that's gross". :)

AMURO: Therefore, if you can cripple the reverse transcriptase enzyme, you can prevent a virus from reproducing right? Right.

CARRIE: OK, the treatment for lead poisoning is removing unabsorbed lead by inducing vomiting or defecation. Would not recommend this with little kids because they dehydrate easily. In serious cases, EDTA (calcium disodium edetate) is given.

AMURO: Now, a long time ago, some people did some experimenting and found that a certain type of square wave with a frequency of about 4 I think, will go through flesh, and can effectively cripple the reverse transcriptase enzyme.

VIOLA: Blood electrolysis is pulling the blood out of the body and running it through a machine, right? Like kidney dialysis?

WAFFLE: Is this a sound wave?

AMURO: Now, there is a spot on our wrists where all the blood in our body passes through every 3 minutes.


CARRIE: Yeah, my son (aged 1) ate an oleander flower. That was a close call!

NORSEMAN: Oleander flower?

AMURO: Therefore, you run this square wave through these two arteries in your wrist, and in 3 minutes, all the reverse transcriptase currently in your blood have been destroyed and therefore any virus have been neutralized

VIOLA: Carrie! Ahah! So this calcium product PULLS the lead from the body! And what if folks did not have the calcium disodium edetate? Add salt to a calcium drink? What's the folks remedy for that?

AMURO: There's a reason you all react with so much skepticism towards this.

NORSEMAN: Viola: Yep

VIOLA: Amuro, square wave? what's that?

NORSEMAN: Amuro: better to post this info to the list.. much easier :)

ATOM: Amuro, it seems possible to me. Have there been any cases treated this way, successfully?

WAFFLE: Do you know what voltage/current the square wave is?

AMURO: just as the government, etc. have been suppressing the truth about, well, you know, so has the pharmaceutical industries, the American Medical Association, etc. been suppressing things like this. You see, cheap, effective cures are not politically correct.

AMURO: There have been hundreds upon hundreds of completely successful AIDS treatments, cured within 3 weeks. AIDS has a success rate of about 99% and cancer is somewhere around 80%

VIOLA: Amuro, so you're saying, just hold your wrist next to an ultra sound device and kill the enzyme, and you retard the virus for sure!

AMURO: It also works with hepatitis and a plethora of other diseases.

WAFFLE: If urine clears up my acne through external or internal use, I'll make a full report on the list serve.

AMURO: Basically, yes.

NORSEMAN: Amuro: but the main thing is, will people be able to use this method after the pole shift?

CARRIE: Right! In fact that is where most dialysis patients have their AV shunts put in. Actually it is about 2 -3 inches above the wrist.

VIOLA: Amuro, if this is the case, then why is it a relative unknown?? Why isn't his on the Internet like crazy, etc.?

CARRIE: Oleander = one of the most potent poisons in the world.

NORSEMAN: I have some medical background about 7 months ago, and I have my doubts about it.. Well I think that there are a lot of alternative methods that are credible and proven, but this one? I don't know.

CARRIE: OK. treatment: For lead poisoning, calcium, Vitamin C, amino acids, iron and zinc

AMURO: You put these two little electrodes up to your wrist, with a strap, and there's a little box with the electronics that you can put in your pocket or whatever. It can easily be used by anyone, even after the pole shift, because of it's compact size. Actually, you're supposed to wear it, to render yourself neutral from any viruses in the air, being passed around. as it enters your body, it's immediately neutralized.

CARRIE: Mercury: Selenium, Vitamin C, amino acids

AMURO: The reason you don't see it around is because nobody will get that big with this, or else they'll find themselves 6 feet under.

CARRIE: For Nickel poisoning: Iron, zinc and Vitamin C.

VIOLA: Amuro, but the underground would go wild on this, would they not? How could the AMA stop the Internet from going abuzz?

CARRIE: The common thread is Vitamin C. Don't know doses, etc.

AMURO: My grandfather had two herbal, alternative medicine centers where he was having amazing success, until they both suffered "mysterious" arson, and were burned to the ground.

NORSEMAN: I have been on the net for more then 2 years now. and as far as I know I didn't read about that device.

VIOLA: Carrie, thanks. Basically, it is countering the BAD minerals with good. Stuffing in the good and sucking out the bad, allowing the body to do a replacement. Waffle, you were right, a heavy iron diet!

AMURO: The American Medical Association's "fire squad" burned both of them down, and my grandfather inhaled so much smoke saving patients that he died less than a year after.

CARRIE: Diet: apples, applesauce, onions, garlic, beans, seeds, fresh fruits and veggies, filtered water. I think this is just for mild cases.

AMURO: Everyone in the world of alternative health knows not only about this device, but Bob Beck, and a ton of other things the majority of the populace doesn't know about.

VIOLA: Amuro, no kidding! There has been rumors abounding for decades about an internal combustion motor that was more efficient than the cars we now run, and that the oil and gas cartels snuff this as they WANT the gas sales to continue. These rumors arise now and then.

AMURO: There are sites explaining and selling these devices, but that's it, nothing more. anything else would be too dangerous. Exactly!! But I encounter SO MUCH disbelief, it gets me so annoyed sometimes. You don't realize it's the same type of thing as the 12th Planet, etc. Just think how most people react to that, and then look at how you're reacting to this. It's the same thing. I am not crazy, I know these things work. I go to a meeting with Bob Beck every week and a group of us discuss various alternative health issues, the devices, etc.

VIOLA: Carrie, have you heard about these devices, this technique? Do you know of any experiments, or any propaganda put out by the AMA, etc.? I have no doubt that the medical lobby could be strong.

WAFFLE: I'm sure it's been discussed, but are there any good alternatives to toilet paper?

AMURO: Although, this is just one of many devices and techniques that I was planning on offering to troubled times, eventually, in an organized e-mail, this is not the proper fashion for explaining these things.

NORSEMAN: Amuro: the main thing is that I don't want to give doubtful information.. And this kind of info is doubtful.. A lot of people visit the Troubled Times site, and doubtful information can make people leave. I don't say that some of this devices doesn't work. But, know what I mean.

AMURO: Oh well, enough running my mouth, I've got to go anyway. You all are free to believe what you want.

VIOLA: The argument is used that those who say they are "cured" were either never sick, part of the con to sell a device, or someone is playing with the statistics, etc. Like apricot pits cure cancer, come to Mexico and get cured. Folks hear of these things and get their back up, etc.

WAFFLE: Of course a pole shift is far fetched in many men's minds anyhow

VIOLA: Amuro, thanks for sharing! Toilet paper = corn cobs in the old days :-).

CARRIE: Amuro: how does one get one of those machines?

AMURO: This isn't some device were hawking off the back of a truck here. This is bigger than you think. Oh well, it's OK if you don't believe me, I mean hell, I'm used to it by now.

VIOLA: Leaves, just be sure they aren't poison ivy leaves.

AMURO: I'll still write up that e-mail anyway.

VIOLA: Carrie, I believe he said they were on a web site, and I'm sure we'll hear.

WAFFLE: Corn cobs really? Or the husks?

VIOLA: It's a tough call, but the early TT days DID do us a service by putting this issue before us early. It was Erasmus who suggested we take the tack that if a solution set is not 1) proven, 2) widely accepted, 3) available to the common man, 4) affordable - then we don't recommend it.

CARRIE: Yeah, Norseman, could you hunt down a web site? You are good at that!

NORSEMAN: I will give it a try. What should be on it?

WAFFLE: Yeah I think the cheap/doable way to go is the right way.

CARRIE: I think it is looking for that person's name - Beck


VIOLA: There's a relationship to what Amuro was saying and the Bare/Rife method of killing parasites in sewage so it could be used for the nutrient value in gardens - ultra sound. Apparently a long standing known treatment! Also kills a lot of bugs, insects.

WAFFLE: I think some high-feq sounds will at least scare bugs away.

VIOLA: In the area on de-parasiting, some of the treatments involve exposing yourself to ultra sound, I think. Harmless to folks, devastating to the worms, etc.

CARRIE: I get so confused at times re TT. There are so many solution sets, yet I wonder how realistic they are for the common person. The average person is not able to build a survival site, much less a water purifier, etc.

VIOLA: Waffle, a tough call but rather than spending a lot of time arguing WHETHER something is the right solution, spend more time packaging the solutions for folks to pull off the web.

WAFFLE: What needs to be done in my opinion is how-to's on how to build tested devices and stuff, made from everyday junk you can get easily. There is always a million ways to build the same machine.

CARRIE: I keep thinking back to the original 'cookie cutter" approach and what the normal person needs to know to survive.

VIOLA: If there are a number of good candidates, just list them all, etc. Even if things contradict, my approach has been to list them, if they all have value.

NORSEMAN: I think I found a website with some info about the thing Amuro mentioned.

CARRIE: Yeah, the simple and the complex solutions.


VIOLA: For instance, on radio and Internet without satellites. Someone recommended GWEN, using the earth for very low frequency, but this was something the military could barely get working and required massive funds to instate. So .. we don't recommend this! Short wave radio won out easy!

WAFFLE: Maybe you can build distillers from some coke bottles and hoses, stuff like that.

VIOLA: Waffle, yes indeed! How-to, with diagrams!


WAFFLE: What do you people think about software storage, would not big magnetic problems erase hard drives and disks? If the silicon wafers survived even?

NORSEMAN: Keep them safe, keep the software safe.

WAFFLE: How? Especially large software, for example my Linux operating system is rather huge. Putting stuff on CD might work, but then the CD players have to read.

NORSEMAN: Not in the neighborhood of magnetic problems etc. If I am right the Zetas said something about it on the TT list

WAFFLE: And you still have to install an OS starting from a floppy for most PC's

VIOLA: I think the software will be most fragile, and one should have more than ONE copy as backup. Encase the software in copper mesh or whatever the best EMP solutions is. Then reload the operating system, software, etc. Folks on the short wave Internet can pass software around afterwards, too, freeware as it were :-). Waffle, in diagramming devices, the best are where the PROCESS is defined, but the exact components are not rigid.

WAFFLE: Has anyone ever played with spinning magnets?

ATOM: Hmm, legal problem: does Microsoft (or other) license agreements get void, and you can pass software on, if Microsoft is grounded by a quake?

WAFFLE: I actually read some voltage, very minor off a very small cheap ceramic magnet

VIOLA: For instance, if you say boil the water and then condense, or capture fog and condense it, then they understand the process.

NORSEMAN: Atom: good thinking.

VIOLA: If you say you must have a pot such a size, and a hose make of plastic so long, then they may get hung up if they don't have the right components, etc.

WAFFLE: Who cares about Microsoft. they make everything worse by keeping a lot of people from having to learn how the computer works.


WAFFLE: Software is not the same as a physical item anyhow. You can't steal it that's ridiculous.

ATOM: I don't care for Microsoft. But if somebody runs their software, and Microsoft gets grounded.

VIOLA: Atom :-). I'd take the risk! MicroSoft will be devastated by the shift too.

WAFFLE: Which is why I use 99% free software

NORSEMAN: I use Windows95 osr2

WAFFLE: Except a couple graphics programs on Win95 which aren't made by M$ :)

NORSEMAN: Viola: right, I don't think that MS will survive the shift.

ATOM: Waffle: I agree. I'll try Linux. May be an alternative. If it contains source, it gets developed on and on. Windows development stops, if M$ gets down.

WAFFLE: They don't care about anything but their God, money, who controls them.

VIOLA: MicroSoft is getting into the Internet business in a BIG way!


WAFFLE: Linux is very stable and very good.

ATOM: I doubt M$ will survive till the pole shift. Seattle is not a stable area.

WAFFLE: And very easy if you force yourself to learn it.. It's extremely important I think, especially considering the number of PC's out there. Linux hasn't crashed one time since I installed it. Except it froze yesterday, but it's a hardware problem I think not Linux. No harm done.

WAFFLE: As if I would have pressed the "halt" button, etc. (which I don't have)

VIOLA: A year or so ago, they weren't. Now they are putting up low satellites, NT is trying to take over the world, Internet Explorer browser is trying to kill off Netscape. What gives? It's like they are trying to form a worldwide Internet connection, to be used during the coming times. I don't think this is necessarily bad, but there should NEVER be just one monopoly. If it goes bad, STS, then all goes down the tube.

WAFFLE: not me :) I think windows is horrible from the beginning. It has a legacy of evil, as most of the software industry.

NORSEMAN: Viola: right.

VIOLA: Waffle, "legacy of evil" :-). MicroSoft has definite takeover side to it. No doubt about that!

WAFFLE: Well, people are forced to buy the next version that 'fixes' all the problems. Internet Explorer i4 is being sold on CD? This was planned from the start. I tried downloading IE4 and you CANT. it never works.

VIOLA: It's vital that the world have options, NOT just one method. This also keeps takeover artists from targeting the single methods. Many options prevents this from even getting started, etc.

WAFFLE: I have many doubts that it's from server lag, either. since I've tried many times at different times of day/week.

NORSEMAN: But okay enough of this chit-chat about M$, back to the real issues now :)

WAFFLE: Free software is the way to go. :) I'll hush now.

VIOLA: Waffle, you're not the only one who has observed those types of situations, the software is rigged so that you MUST use it, full bore, etc.

WAFFLE: Yeah. what's the biggest issue facing people now?

VIOLA: Here's what folks need to worry about in the Aftertime. Say they save their computers, can use Moon Bounce, and receive and send when the moon is overhead.

NORSEMAN: Moon Bounce?

VIOLA: Gangs looking to raid or government rag-tag groups trying to find the tax-payers that they can start taxing again (food will do if they don't have money) may use this as a route to FIND these survival groups. So .. the key is short transmissions, not to be on-line for long periods, and not to give out your location, just share info and then "good night"!


VIOLA: Ah, with Moon Bounce, would it be possible anyway to locate who sent it to the moon? Maybe only by general area, and then the area might be too broad.


ATOM: Also, how much of transmission tracking devices will survive pole shift? :)

NORSEMAN: Good question :)

VIOLA: You know the conspiracy theory that folks are being tagged, biologically, with vaccinations? I think this is silly, but with software, tagging CAN occur. Software often has a S/N internal to it, and loaded identifies the site.


VIOLA: So .. if MicroSoft is widely used, and highly registered, then after the PS those who start transmitting on a short wave Internet might be identifiable? Seems far fetched, for several reasons:

ATOM: Well, not physical site, I guess. On Internet you can get IP number, but that doesn't tell much of your house number.

VIOLA: 1) Software ID is in the machine, not in the transmission (at least per my understanding) 2) shared software would scramble that ID, as software could be sent round the world in a hurry if the laws were no longer in place, and then the ID would be meaningless.

WAFFLE: You can make a Linux system completely secure, even with encrypted file systems. You have to type a password just to get to Win95 on my machine, something not possible without Linux.

VIOLA: Atom, I'm not sure how a short wave Internet works, anyway. I guess by IP number as this would be the area that would respond and transmit BACK. Unless it was down, then no response, just like today.

WAFFLE: I also think SMALL software is very important. very small programs like the old days where memory /modem speed was premium. Programs today are very huge and bloated..

NORSEMAN: Yep, right

VIOLA: Waffle, the main thing will be for communications to be able to happen AT ALL.

NORSEMAN: Small software will be important, my guess.

WAFFLE: The old machines did many of the same things (not as pretty) with under 64k of memory.

WAFFLE: Yeah, you're right

VIOLA: Say someone transmits they have lead poisoning, what to do?

ATOM: Waffle: Agree. Windows + Office + some more stuff gets too much to preserve. Old programs, with DOS, were on one floppy. Easier to handle, save, backup.

VIOLA: The response comes back, heavy iron diet. Vital, just those few words!

WAFFLE: Yes very

VIOLA: Guys, it may happen that the old simple methods will be packaged so that folks can have this as a backup!


VIOLA: My grandmother's sewing machine is stuffed in the attic, it works by hand, or by foot that is, a foot treadle.

WAFFLE: Yeah, good point.

VIOLA: Now, this is they type of thing folks are going to NEED! Yet where are the diagrams on how to build such a thing! A lost art!

WAFFLE:There are still plenty of us that actually know how computers tick. And have lots of older hardware that's easier to interface to radios then PC's, etc. I can program a C64 to send data out the port to anything, it's easy.

VIOLA: This is a worthy project! Waffle and Atom, to put together a set of computer software, the basics! If Linux is free, then it can be like a cookbook, go here, collect this, then do that, etc.

NORSEMAN: Yep, this will for sure a good project

WAFFLE: There is also some VERY small distributions of Linux, I think.

VIOLA: As the time draws nigh, we will need to provide folks with this. Save this off, load it onto your computer afterwards, then do this, etc.

WAFFLE: I need another computer to test stuff on without hosing this one. I'll have to go find an old computer to use.

VIOLA: We don't have our short wave Internet recommendations finalized as yet, so don't know the structure, but this will come I have no doubt.

WAFFLE: Actually I could make my own small version of Linux..

VIOLA: It IS a working solutions, used in Australia! Remember, in the Aftertime, for a survival group, they aren't going to need all the bells and whistles, just the basics that allow a graphic to be send, some text, simple communications.

NORSEMAN: Does Linux also runs on smaller computers like 286?

WAFFLE: OK, I can make a very small Linux dist. (500k - 1 meg) but the problem would be adding new features, since the kernel source code is 9 megs

WAFFLE: No, 386 +


VIOLA: I think much will change between now and 2003 anyway.

WAFFLE: It needs memory protection.

NORSEMAN: Waffle: but what if some people have for example some old 286 and want to use them after the shift? Just a thought.

VIOLA: One thing we will be doing continuously is modifying our solution sets. Right now we just build build build, but in the future we may prune and trim, change, etc.

WAFFLE: But the other real problem is PC's, they are designed very STUPID and makes it very hard to interface them with other equipment :( The old computers were so easy :(

NORSEMAN: Yep, they were. I started with a commodor C16

VIOLA: Some solutions will be timeless, like eating earthworms, purging them in water, running them through a ringer to kill them, dry and powder them, etc. High protein.

ATOM: The old computers like Spectrum and C64 had ROM, and basic stuff in it. No floppies with OS needed. This was advantage in one way.

WAFFLE: Very advantageous

ATOM: Some older PC's had the same. Can newer be upgraded with it? Probably not.

NORSEMAN: Yep, right Atom.. Those computers were easy to use.

VIOLA: Folks may need to take their computers apart in order to get them to survive! Some parts may be fragile, not survive the jolts of earthquakes. It may be that the ultimate solution set for Aftertime communications is anything BUT what we think of today, our standard home PC's etc.

WAFFLE: PC's are still the best answer because there are so many. So we really should concentrate on those despite the problems, ?am I wrong

ATOM: Viola: guess you're right. Time will show.

NORSEMAN: Yep... but even if the solution will be different. I think it's important to work on this one.

VIOLA: Waffle, I think we need to start with PC's and short wave radio, as these are common and accepted, yup!

ATOM: There's lots of new stuff in portables and notepads. This may get used.

ATOM: They are also more robust.

VIOLA: Technology is moving so rapidly, no telling! But unlikely to get wide public acceptance and use in the next 5 years.

NORSEMAN: Viola: right

ATOM: Public acceptance up or down. If I find it useful for pole shift, don't mind if it's not publicly accepted.

VIOLA: I keep thinking that folks may be printing off our web pages just days ahead of the shift, and then looking around the house to see what they can pull together. Maybe the printouts survive, and they are standing in a junk heap of their home or neighborhood, trying to see what they can piece together. This more than likely will be what will occur.

ATOM: Sure.


WAFFLE: Did anyone answer me about the cube being the strongest object (so the TT site says) I thought the tetrahedron was strongest. Equilateral , like the geodesic dome is derived from.

ATOM: Tetrahedron = pyramid?


VIOLA: That's why temporary solutions like using car or truck headlights as bulbs connected to 12 V batteries is so handy. So MANY folks will be able to piece that together. Works for the first week, anyway :-).

WAFFLE: Equilateral 4-sided pyramid because the stress is most evenly distributed.

VIOLA: Waffle, the cube is NOT the strongest, the circle of oval is, continuous curve.

WAFFLE: In a cube it's not.

ATOM: Pyramids and continuous ovals are strongest, I guess. I think this is what TT pages said.

WAFFLE: I read the cube was. Let me find it.

VIOLA: Cube is strongest building shape that the construction industry wants to deal with. They don't like curves, too hard to work with.

VIOLA: Waffle, the strongest is NO joints whatsoever. This is an architectural fact.

WAFFLE: I'm reading the part about "Box Construction". The strongest structure known to man is the cube. It might not matter, I'm just making a point that the cube isn't the strongest :) The cube might very well do just fine.

VIOLA: Waffle, I know that is in there, quake proof structures, someone says cube, but this is just an opinion. We also say, in the dome area, that curves are strongest. There will on occasion be, in TT, contradictions if folks have different opinions about things. I decided not to worry about this too much.

WAFFLE: The cube would be easier to make in a hurry, I think.

NORSEMAN: I don't think that we can say this or that solution is the best.. Sometimes there are more then one solution.

VIOLA: As long as the solution set, the suggestion, has a lot of worth, then let folks sort it out themselves, pick and chose what works best for them.'

NORSEMAN: Viola: agree

WAFFLE: Yeah I know.

VIOLA: Waffle, yes, earthquake resistance is often packaged in terms of nailing more plywood boards to make a side rigid, and there's nothing wrong with this if this is the best that folks can do in a short time period, etc.

WAFFLE: Maybe we can put up a how-to about how to make a dome at the last minute or something. A small one, made from every day junk.

VIOLA: That's what I mean, about needing MANY solution sets, so that folks can pick and chose.

WAFFLE: I know

NORSEMAN: Waffle: maybe.

VIOLA: Waffle, there will be lots coming in the next 5 years, I know that for a fact!

WAFFLE: because it can't be that hard. Once you build a tiny section, you just have to build a zillion more and piece the thing together. There is probably an easy way to do it.

VIOLA: Some of the best solutions are the simple ones, and we'll have those coming out as time passes.

WAFFLE: I'll model on the computer in 3D and try to figure something out in the way of a model. I have lots of room in this basement, even enough to build a full scale small Ddome. But it has to be from free materials, or easy to get. Cheap etc. Or am I wasting my time with that idea?

VIOLA: Waffle, good project! The DD is SO quake proof!

NORSEMAN: I don't think so you waste your time with that idea.

WAFFLE: DD? dodecahedron? Those are only 12 sided

NORSEMAN: Double Dome?

WAFFLE: Would a full sphere be better/worse?

VIOLA: I think about it, imagine it floating on the sandy ground as a DD in water. It tips in this direction and then slides back into place! liquefaction would be self correcting!

WAFFLE: I am just thinking of 2 parts - the braces, and the corner fasteners, that's all you need!

VIOLA: I saw a picture of liquefaction in Japan, in the book Peace of Mind in Earthquake Country. The square buildings are tipped at a 45 degree angle, sideways, sinking into the ground.

WAFFLE: I'm just thinking 2 parts since welding is really not an option for most.

VIOLA: Folks were climbing out the windows and walking down the side of the building to safety. There was NO WAY that building was going to be righted or useful. NONE. A DD self corrects, if the weight is heaviest in the center of one of the domes.

WAFFLE: Does anyone know if the density matters when making a dome? (less density = easier construction)

VIOLA: After shocks would right it, jiggle it into place again.

WAFFLE: I can't BELIEVE people don't build new houses to be domes, especially in earthquake zones. Only rich people do. It's probably against the stupid building codes also.

VIOLA: Waffle, light material that is super strong is the construction dream, for sure :-).

WAFFLE: We build houses like in the 500 AD times. I don't mean material density. I mean number of facets on the globe, how many sticks you need , etc. Does smaller, more numerous sticks is better or worse?

VIOLA: Waffle, the building codes are tremendously restrictive. Existing lobbies interfere too. Here in California, in spite of the wild fires that burn every year, the wood lobby has prevented wood shingle roofs from being outlawed.

WAFFLE: I bet domes are illegal everywhere or there would be more.

VIOLA: In the Oakland fire we had here a few years back, right next to Berkeley, the only houses that survived were those that had slate roofs.


WAFFLE: I only see domes in part's of house, like for a certain room etc.

VIOLA: Its a known protection! Yet the wood shingle lobby has Sacramento tied up. They WILL NOT outlaw these roofs!

WAFFLE: Yep. Whatever makes a buck. Who cares if it burns up a few kids

NORSEMAN: You mean, if the law say so?

VIOLA: The fires dropped everything around the slate roof homes, down to ashes on the ground, and there stood the slate roof homes, like islands! It was so dramatic and clear! Yet did not change the laws one wit!