link to Home Page

icon 13-Apr-97

Note: it is a general Troubled Times policy to change the names of IRC participants to screen names and remove personal discussions that occurred during the chat in the interests of privacy.

VIOLA: What shall we chat about today? How about how to handle the growth, as the list is getting so busy!

NORSEMAN: I think that will be a good topic.

VIOLA: It will soon get to the point where the e-mail on the list serve is so voluminous, so long every day, that it is no longer workable!

NORSEMAN: Is Atom still busy with message boards on his site?

VIOLA: Getting there now, almost. Everyday dozens of posts, and GOOD posts! Atom hasn't gotten back to me yet on that. NT has a built-in search engine, which they call an additional "server" but its just an additional function to the original server software, my understanding. I think we're going to have to break into sub-discussion groups, with the team reporting to the main list serve when they've summarized a contribution/thought, etc. So we could list interest areas, maybe along the lines that we already have set up, and folks could go in THERE to chat. The only draw back is that having the group as is creates a synergy! Interest areas are all over the map! Sometimes we have a posting from the most unlikely source that's just a jewel! Having all subjects on one list is great in that regard.

LONG-BOW: I think we will always need a full group meeting like this one, and then smaller ones as they are needed.

NORSEMAN: Yes agree with you Longbow

VIOLA: Agreed, Long-Bow. Folks that one would expect to only be interesting in gardening suddenly show up as having knowledge about batteries, something like that. Wide ranging knowledge, etc.

VIOLA: If we have the message boards, bulletin board type, then specific discussions can be directed there and the results summarized and posted to the group, maybe.

NORSEMAN: Viola: I see your point

VIOLA: What to do about the growth, so many postings every day. What about when we get 1,000 members!

LONG-BOW: The message board thing is ultimately the answer.

VIOLA: Say the recent discussion on outhouses. If someone posts about sanitation, toilets, the discussion could be directed to a message board thread. Then an assigned or volunteered team member could summarize the results and post to the list serve when that discussion concludes!

NORSEMAN: Viola: are the message boards only on Atom's server but also on the other ones?

LONG-BOW: If everyone could use something like Netmeeting then we could have subgroups with audio, whiteboard and all that stuff. Problem is that folks still use Mac's (ugh!)

VIOLA: This would cut down on the editing too, as the summarization could pre-edit the results of the message board discussion. Chats! Yes, a spontaneous chat scheduled for the topic area, etc.

NORSEMAN: Long-Bow: but if Microsoft will come up with a version for the Mac, that would change. Viola: some internet sites have a chatroom. It's some kind of Java script.

VIOLA: Doesn't white board require certain software? I thought that was expensive?

LONG-BOW: Has anyone used Microsoft comic chat? It's a blast!

VIOLA: Norse, the message board would be web based, my understanding. Atom said this is cheap, like web support now, as far as the IP considers it. Just more web traffic.

LONG-BOW: I thought that chat rooms on a web page was what we were planning.

NORSEMAN: Long-Bow: there are message boards and chatrooms there is a difference from what I know.. But message boards are much more used for what I noticed

VIOLA: No! Is Microsoft comic chat automatic with NT or some such? How do you get it? Long-Bow - yes, this is the plan. Atom is working on it, to get it up on the Vizija server where he works.

LONG-BOW: Microsoft Netmeeting is free, has text, voice, and whiteboard.

VIOLA: If folks think their message will stay on the message board for awhile, for the others to see, they may be more careful to fill it full of content, not the "I agree" type postings we have now!

NORSEMAN: Yes, I think folks are more careful with message boards. It's a bit like a newsgroup

VIOLA: So, in this case, the list serve would be used to introduce new topics, then get directed to a thread, then the topic comes back in a week or two with a summarization! Something else I'm thinking is a trial web site directory.

NORSEMAN: A trial web site directory.. what do you mean with that ?

VIOLA: What I mean by that is that the team leads, volunteers or whatever, could web wrap and include graphics for the results of the thread, and this could get uploaded to a trial directory. Then folks could review the final there, too, NOT on the list serve!

LONG-BOW: I don't understand what's being planned regarding message boards vs. chat rooms.

VIOLA: Review & Comment could be a message board thing, too! Long-Bow, where do you get Netmeeting? Is it shareware or what?

LONG-BOW: I like the idea of Review & Comment

VIOLA: If this is free, this is fantastic! Couple years ago, white board conferencing was $10,000 minimum setup, software included, as I recall.

NORSEMAN: Viola: you can download it from and some other sites..

LONG-BOW: You get Netmeeting from the Microsoft site.

VIOLA: Review & Comment really works! The system works! Plus it allows the discussion to be free-wheeling as it should be. Folks don't have to worry about being 100% correct, etc. There's a change for a last look, a last consideration, etc.

NORSEMAN: I noticed it works, people give comments on it etc., so it works.

VIOLA: I'm going to go after it, Long

LONG-BOW: Great!

VIOLA: So if we use message boards and perhaps even trial web wrapping for R & C, then the list serve would serve as a main hub, to let folks know what is going on elsewhere in subgroups, on sub-threads, etc. Maybe letting them know about the sub-threads would occur naturally, as the Membership page could direct them to these from jump, at the start!

NORSEMAN: Good idea, Viola. And it think it will work

LONG-BOW: One advantage of summarizing on the web is that those not participating are more likely to read the stuff and be enticed to join in.

VIOLA: So then the list serve may be for general announcements, where you FOR SURE want all the members to notice, etc.

NORSEMAN: Viola: do you think that those message boards will only be on Atom's server but also on the others?

VIOLA: Correct! So would we have them join the membership before being able to POST to the message board, but anyone can read? We wouldn't want the general public allowed to post, else we might find the message board filled with silly or harassment stuff, etc.

NORSEMAN: Right. Those things happen on message boards sometimes. So it will be a password protected message boards right? VIOLA: Norseman, many or one, depends on what is most workable. I think one.

LONG-BOW: He could set up the ability to require a form with id and password before being allowed to post.

VIOLA: If the traffic can't be handled at one, then we should have many but divided by subject area,. for instance.

VIOLA: Long-Bow, excellent idea!

LONG-BOW: Viola, where is the main zetatalk site? (

VIOLA: Long-Bow, good thought. This is no different than what we have now, as folks can subscribe and then un-subscribe, but we know who they were, etc. Main is at PA Online, in Pennsylvania. Second, is Vizija.

NORSEMAN: Viola: and only if someone subscribed to the list they can get a password. Just as with this chats

VIOLA: This was my thought as folks could just add a number if they found they could not get into the primary, and would arrive at another site. Easy to remember.

NORSEMAN: sometimes I get e-mail from people who want to join the chat, and they aren't on the list

VIOLA: We also have a 4th Mirror in Sweden, still getting the data clean, bumped into the Upper/Lower case file name problem :-)

LONG-BOW: Or, he could subscribe individuals himself, assigning a id and password. That way it is totally controlled

VIOLA: Long, could you expand on that? who's the "he" in your statement? Do you mean team leads? Message Thread leads?

LONG-BOW: The controller of the site with the on-line chat area.

VIOLA: Oh! So how would that work, that there is a chat scheduled to talk about a certain subject, and the person calling the chat assigned ID and Password? That would work! So for instance, in the recent Outhouse discussion. This would come up on the main list serve. It would be directed to a Thread. Message posting would go there, and then when the topic got intense, a chat might be called. Then they chat too, and finally, the lead would summarize and post to the main list serve. Right? Atom, how is the web message board coming? I just summarized where we're going with the increased activity, solutions for this, etc.

LONG-BOW: No, I'm talking about the site with the NT server. Set up a page with real-time chat rooms. The site owner would control who has access to those chat rooms.

VIOLA: We think a combo of web message board, plus spontaneous chats called, with introductionof a topic and summarizing the discussion ONLY going onto the main list serve.

ATOM:: Well, we've been up and down with all possible web discussion add-ons, but nothing seemed quite approvable.

VIOLA: Long-Bow, you mean a perpetual chat! I'm learning a lot here!

ATOM:: It seems, I'll need to write one. But I'll start with a web chat for beginning. Seems more needed as IRC is dying under all the traffic.

NORSEMAN: By the way, there is also a program called conference room. It's for setting up a IRC server.. It might be useful in the near future?

VIOLA: I see! Maybe this will have to wait until one of the members has their own NT server, etc. My husband built one, and its loaded already, but just not linked up to the Internet. This would be a big $$ increase, to link up to the Interent.

NORSEMAN: It's not free software, that program.

VIOLA: Is this not true, Long-Bow? ISPN line, and then one has to link to an IP I think, correct?

ATOM:: Viola: yes, $$, providers charge every byte.

VIOLA: Norse, but to have Conference Room, one needs a server! It would have to be installed on Netis or PA Online or Vizija, etc.

LONG-BOW: Not necessarily, if you have a second phone line to connect to your server, the chat could be called in advance and you just make sure your server is connected at that time.

NORSEMAN: Viola: you heard/read about that program?

VIOLA: The IP's are touchy about this. PA Online is very strict. Netis has their own way of saying "no', they just don't ever say "yes" :-)

ATOM:: Longbow is right. You can run your personal web server, for the time needed. We used this to transfer files from one to another personal computer. It works.

VIOLA: Atom, so you're saying that if you have a phone line to a server in your home, that you can HOST IRC CHATS?? You don't need a TCP/IP address assigned from InterNIC, etc.? Just the phone number is unique enough, etc.?

ATOM:: Yes. Also, you need only one line. You have your TCP/IP address anyway!!

VIOLA: You assign the TCP/ID address, right? My husband just put in any old numbers.

ATOM:: Every computer in Internet has IP address, not matter you are a server or an occasional guest browser...

VIOLA: But these are supposed to be unique to the Internet, right? Like domain names, they have to be assigned by InterNIC, right? Did Vizija do that?

NORSEMAN: maybe you could take a look at,4,0-22188,00.html info about Conference room

LONG-BOW: Just a phone number isn't unique enough, you need a unique IP number on your server.

ATOM:: Your provider assigns you an IP, AOL in your case! You can't configure your computer for Internet, if you didn't get IP!

VIOLA: Oh! So if I wanted to be a server, then I would need AOL or Netcom, and THEY would assigned me a number!

ATOM:: They ALREADY assigned you a number. Without a number, you would not be there.

VIOLA: PA Online did this, they gave me a list of numbers which is unique to me, as a user of their system/ It's like a Userid for ftp, the number string.

NORSEMAN: Viola: you have a number right now.

VIOLA: Atom, we're just in the living room at present, haven't talked to an IP to get a number, etc. Must be that IP's have a block of numbers assigned to them! THEY must sign these out and pay $$ to someone. Is this InterNIC that controls the numbers for IP's?

LONG-BOW: Viola, didn't you register your zetatalk sites? All servers have unique server ID's. Only clients can be assigned variable ID's by their ISP.

VIOLA: Long-Bow. I registered zetatalk and 2, and 3 with InterNIC as domain names, yes.

ATOM:: No, every provider get a class. For example: Vizija has 193.77.175.xx. That xx is what they give out.

NORSEMAN: It could be that your number is dynamic. It changes every time you get on the Internet.

VIOLA: But not as TCP/IP addresses, as I'm using the TCP/IP that the IP has. InterNIC just points the logical domain name to the current IP, and THEY have the TCP/IP numbers of their primary and secondary servers.

NORSEMAN: Viola: there is a difference.

VIOLA: So if I wanted the server that my husband build to be on the Internet, I would have to get a number from SOMEONE right?

ATOM:: Viola: right, just one IP from the provider you are connected to.

LONG-BOW: Viola: OK I understand. You need to apply for a unique set of IP's for your server.

VIOLA: Long-Bow, who do I apply to? InterNIC? Atom, did Vizija get their "class" from InterNIC?

ATOM:: No, Vizija get it from EUNet, the provider they're connected to.

LONG-BOW: I don't know the details. Atom?

VIOLA: I think we're moving in the direction of being a server on the Internet. Providing gobs of special services to TT, for instance, that other IP's don't want to put up, etc.

ATOM:: EUNet probably got it from InterNIC.

VIOLA: This is not tomorrow, but in the near future, and I suspect we won't be the only site doing that, either!

LONG-BOW: Viola: In the long run, I think you need to apply for your own unique set of IP's.

VIOLA: Atom, there must be a central place, and InterNIC may be it. The Internet, after all, sprang up in the US serving universities but mainly the military, the US government. The web pages are going to get crowded too. My thought on how to handle this is to have the main subject areas be only icons, and folks could click on the icon to get a linking page. Now the linking pages are not too large, but they soon will be!

LONG-BOW: I think it is InterNIC, but would have to find out for sure. There is a news group that talks about only that sort of stuff.

ATOM:: Viola: forget the central place. You only deal with the one, you're connected to. Always!

VIOLA: If they get too large, then it not only takes forever to download, it can also choke memory for some computers.

NORSEMAN: I think it's the provider who give the IP and InterNIC who give a domain name not sure about it

VIOLA: What do you folks think? The hub as 6 B&W icons, then each of these would be a page of just the icons? This may be confusing, perhaps a menu list with Icon at the left as a bullet point, etc.

SHADOW:: I think that would work better.

VIOLA: I'm toying with it. There will have to be a way to handle the info load in time.

NORSEMAN: Viola: that might work.

SHADOW:: Yes, I think it would

VIOLA: Right now we have a dozen icons per subject, but what about when we get 100 icons per subject! What then!

LONG-BOW: I like the bulleted list idea

VIOLA: Maybe search engines are the answer.

SHADOW:: well, if you have a contents page with icons, I think that would work

VIOLA: The main hub would be a search engine page, and the engine would bring up a list of pages that apply, each with their icon on the left as a visual clue! Now that seems more workable!

LONG-BOW: Yes, table of contents!



SHADOW:: Just like a book

VIOLA: The icons take awhile to download too, so we don't want to burden the reader with all that unnecessarily. Search engine approach is so neat! Also, gets them related info from places they didn't think to look!

NORSEMAN: Yes, just like a book. And not to much graphics on the pages, a page has to load fast.. right?

SHADOW:: True. Right

LONG-BOW: Table of contents with links on in line item

SHADOW:: Just graphics where needed. Yes

NORSEMAN: Viola: on the site I mentioned on the list, the one with the scripts there is also a script for some kind of search engine

VIOLA: Long-Bow, do you think the B&W icons should lead to a page that is a table on contents only? No ions? Then the individual pages would have an icon to identify them with the content area? This would download fastest, that's for sure!

NORSEMAN: There are also sites who work with frames, but not all browsers works with frames

LONG-BOW: I would replace the page with B&W icons with a table of contents page, no icons. Then start using icons.

VIOLA: What to you guys think about the idea that was tossed around earlier in the month, having solutions sets identified, tagged, as high-tech, low-tech, primitive, subsistence, etc.

SHADOW:: The icon should lead to the table of contents. From there, you can pick a topic. Many people get tired of going from one place to the next only to be discouraged at not finding what they are looking for immediately

LONG-BOW: Yes on the solution sets.

NORSEMAN: Shadow: right, if people click on the icon they get back to the index, right?

ATOM:: I think solution sets is cool. It gives you all at one place. No need to search, jump, etc.

ATOM:: The solution sets would then be main page (hub).

VIOLA: Long-Bow, I like it! What about the TOC having the B&W icons to indicate subject areas, and each subject area TOC having icons on its TOC to indicate topic areas? This is the page that could have 100 icons, eventually. We may have to play with this a bit to see what is more workable! Maybe the Vizija site, with search engine, could have one approach, the other sites another, etc. So far whenever we post solutions, we don't categorize them, just .. here it is! What if we categorized them, saying this is High-Tech, this is Subsistence, etc. For instance, concern about keeping computers from getting smashed and working in the Aftertime is high-tech.

CARRIE:: I like the idea of tagging solution sets.

NORSEMAN: I like it also, tagging the solution sets

VIOLA: Concern about getting water to drink by running a cloth over a dew wet grassy field at dawn is subsistence, etc. Do you think this would be an unnecessary admin overhead? Not really relevant or necessary?

ATOM:: I think this is necessary. From a peoples point of view.

VIOLA: This would allow solutions sets to come up by type, maybe, so that the bare bones solutions could be found quickly.




LONG-BOW: yes, have main functions at the higher level, then below each, as applies, high tech, low tech, etc. Some areas aren't appropriate to divide that way.

VIOLA: I'm thinking that a lot of folks may be in a panic state when they first come into the pages, frightened.

SHADOW:: They will be

NORSEMAN: I also think that they will be.

VIOLA: Long-Bow, yes! Divided like that. Some of the stuff we offers is links to other sites, and this would be in an information category, general info, etc.

CARRIE:: That is one reason why it needs to be simple and direct.

VIOLA: Our own solutions could be categorized.

SHADOW:: If I was in a panic stricken state, I would want a table of contents. In that you could also put in High tech and they could go from there.

VIOLA: Imagine a dad, with young kids, concluding that the PS is truly going to happen, and in a panic at what to do. He comes onto the TT pages and is overwhelmed with the material, so much!

CARRIE:: People in a panic need to be pointed in a straight strong direction - no frills or side trips on the way.

SHADOW:: Yes, that is why I think the contents page would be better, he could skim them right quick, find the subject quickly then go from there

VIOLA: He starts e-mailing frantically as he wants answers and is unable to digest it all. So the list serve gets these panic newcomer all asking for the same thing. So he aims for the subsistence solutions sets, reads them and realizes he CAN put that into place, and in a month!

SHADOW:: Right

VIOLA: Now he's not panicking any more, is calmer, so reads the next up, the primitive solution set.

SHADOW:: Right. this will be very important

VIOLA: He sees he can also handle that, but starts to write a list down and plan a bit.

SHADOW:: Right


VIOLA: Maybe in a week or so, he's also adopted some high-tech stuff, not all but some, and he's working now rather than panicking.

SHADOW:: Then most likely he will make contact.

VIOLA: I think it important that folks see the subsistence is something THEY can achieve!

NORSEMAN: Make contact?

VIOLA: Many think they can't live if the world has a pole shift, it sounds like all would die, to them.

SHADOW:: This would be more work, but you could have small paragraphs on each subject and then if they want more, then they can go to the full page. This would calm them down a bit, but its a lot of work

NORSEMAN: Viola: they think it's all doom and gloom?

VIOLA: I get e-mail from people who say it would be the end of the world, etc. They can't imagine surviving, etc.

SHADOW:: Right

VIOLA: Our solution sets need to show, quickly and graphically, that survival IS possible, and is not all that hard to put into place!

SHADOW:: Its hard for anyone to admit to what is about to happen until they can comprehend all the material we provide

VIOLA: Norseman, they just can't imagine how to survive! Most civilized folks are so used to going to the grocery store, making house payments, gassing up the car, etc.

NORSEMAN: So if they know how to that will give them another point of view.

SHADOW:: I deal with this everyday. So I start slowly at what I show them.

ATOM:: Yes, most fear "the end of the world".

VIOLA: They are at a loss! Then think of a pole shift as putting them in the middle of a field, no water, no food, no shelter, no nothing!

SHADOW:: That's true

VIOLA: Of course, this is CORRECT! But if they learn they can boil and distill good drinking water, cook grubs over a fire and pop Vitamin pills, and be OK, they see a light at the end of the tunnel.

LONG-BOW: Maybe it would be a good idea to put this modified organization of material in outline form and post it to TT-list for review and comment.

VIOLA: Then, when panic subsides, they start to plan, not think all-is-lost, or what's-the-use, etc.

SHADOW:: Many ask me about this comet coming, so what I do, is to print up small folders then start explaining this to them. They seem to be able to handle it better when they have someone to lean on

VIOLA: Shadow, what info do you give them first? Do you lead with the geological changes, or save that for last?

SHADOW:: I first copy down about the comet from our files

VIOLA: It seems that would HAVE to be explained up front for them to understand the situation.

SHADOW:: then I get all needed info like food and shelter, as I explain this to them and in the direction this comet is coming, I explain about shelter

VIOLA: So you 1. there's what's going to happen pole shift wise, then 2. here's subsistence info.

SHADOW:: Then I go back and tell them about what the effects and safer areas are, right.

NORSEMAN: It might be that some people think that the 12th Planet will crash on earth or that they don't understand what is on the site?

SHADOW:: They seem less panic stricken when I do this

VIOLA: I think the order should be 1. here's what's going to happen, 2. here's how to survive the pole shift, 3. here's subsistence in Aftertime, 4. here's primitive living in Aftertime. etc.

SHADOW:: I give them the folder free to take home and keep so they can keep going over it until they comprehend it

VIOLA: Norseman, yes, much discussion by the government, for instance the Asteroid movie, given folks the idea that a crash is likely. In fact, the 12th does NOT crash into earth upon passage, but some gravel and boulders in the tail might hit the earth.

SHADOW:: Really, though I put my money into this, I feel so much better when I see a smile come from their face after I hand them this folder to take home. Yes, they do think its going to crash into the earth and this is when you have to calm them down and get them to thinking

VIOLA: Shadow, I note we mention SURVIVE on the home page, so folks can understand this is the point of TT, etc., not that we think its all of no use, another Heaven's Gate or something.

SHADOW:: Right

NORSEMAN: But what we can we do about it. I think we are already doing it, right, Viola?

SHADOW:: I tell them that some will survive and others won't, its totally up to them

VIOLA: Right, Norseman, but we probably need to come up with organizing methods, categories, as earlier discussed.

SHADOW:: Yes, but sometimes we have to go out of our way to help people understand the coming events, and that's what I do.

VIOLA: There will be TOO MUCH info otherwise, for those in a panic.

SHADOW:: Very brief paragraphs for them to digest is good

VIOLA: For instance, if we don't organize, categorize, by subsistence to high-tech, then this panicked father would be impatient with the high-tech solutions he had to paw through while looking for the bottom line, subsistence.

SHADOW:: Right

VIOLA: He would either give up or start sending e-mails! More likely the latter.

SHADOW:: He may even feel its useless trying to get the info

VIOLA: I'm thinking of the list serve, where today they come in curious, serious, listen a bit and then join in.

SHADOW:: We need something quick and brief

VIOLA: In the future, we may have hundreds of list serve postings saying, in essence, "help me, where do I go, what do I do!"

SHADOW:: Right

VIOLA: Well, we already TELL them that, but they are too panicked to find the info.

SHADOW:: Because panic dulls their senses and they will need help.

VIOLA: So if we categorize, this hypothetical dad with little kids can focus on subsistence and maybe follow that thread. We might even offer TOC Table of Contents BY survival mode, to help them quickly understand what is needed!


SHADOW:: That would be good. You know, I have a lot of people coming in for books on survival.

VIOLA: You know, that's the beauty of the web, that it allows linking to info from many different directions, many different TOC!

SHADOW:: In fact, I have someone asking for herbal plants and edible plants.

NORSEMAN: What does TOC means ?

ATOM:: TOC = Table of Contents

VIOLA: Shadow, right! None of this is impossible, just that many have not lived like that for awhile. We are so civilized!

SHADOW:: Right. In less than a week, I have had three customers ask for this info.

VIOLA: Then there are many how are alive only because of modern medicine, etc., or are simply not psychologically of a mind set to do for themselves.

NORSEMAN: Shadow: maybe they looked at the site, you never know.

SHADOW:: That's when my folders usually come in handy. You never know.

VIOLA: THESE folks panic for sure, and this is an area we can't help them with, I suspect.

SHADOW:: But I do tell them about this site and how to get more info. Even my web page tells a little, but still working on it

VIOLA: What does one say? Oh, you have severe diabetes, so you'll dies in a day. There IS no solution set for that that we have, period!

LONG-BOW: Another thing to consider, perhaps under the various technological levels is the various scenarios, anarchy, government trying to control, etc.

VIOLA: Long, right! Expand on that, how would you see that categorized?

SHADOW:: I do mention about healing with the mind, but I don't think it would work for anything serious

VIOLA: Would this be a factor in ALL the solution set modes? In other words, subsistence would say, for instance, watch where you start your fire so others won't locate you from that, for safety sake?

NORSEMAN: Shadow: but because of the stress that people could experience after the pole shift it could help right ?

SHADOW:: Most certainly it would help. I do it with my own blood pressure and things. But you have to practice this continually to really get results.

VIOLA: And if high tech mode, only communicate with other high tech groups for a specific hour each day, not continuously, so you can't be located? Like that?

SHADOW:: Our minds are very powerful

VIOLA: Shadow, I guess that can be summed up with the phrase, where there's a will, there's a way!

SHADOW:: That's right

NORSEMAN: Agree with you about that Shadow

LONG-BOW: Viola: yes, say, under primitive your list of options would be different if you could move as you please as opposed to having to hide from being rounded up and put into "survival" camps.

VIOLA: In other words, if one WANTS to survive, they will make that happen, but if one gives up, then failure is the likely outcome.

SHADOW:: If your bound and determined to live, you will be capable of doing this. I've done it for years now. Especially when I had pheneumonia.

VIOLA: The will to live is extremely important! Doctors know this full well.

SHADOW:: No medicine worked, but I healed myself. That's right.

VIOLA: I think the major contribution we give to folks is that we tell them 1. you can survive, and 2. here's HOW.

SHADOW:: Plus you have to have a positive mind. Yes


VIOLA: It's the HOW, the simple practical things, that is the key.

SHADOW:: Right

VIOLA: Plus, the second thing, is that we cover a WIDE variety of subjects, not just one or two.

SHADOW:: Right, give them hope or they won't continue to read.

VIOLA: Many sites say "eat bugs" or "build a shelter" or "think rescue from the space brothers" or some such.

SHADOW:: They have to learn to rely on their own abilities, and enhance those abilities.

NORSEMAN: But we are different.. TT is different, TT gives many solutions, a lot of info.

VIOLA: They are limited in scope! We cover all facets, the whole thing, and weave these solutions into sets so that all questions are answered.

SHADOW:: They have plenty of time right now to do this, yes, but they can select it accordingly.

NORSEMAN: Shadow: and people have to know how to enhance them, right?

SHADOW:: Right. In healing the body, they can go to Carrie's page.

VIOLA: For instance, a limited site might explain how to build a shelter, like the site with their personal pod thing, but what about afterwards! Nothing said! What about clean water when the water bottles are empty, etc. What about protein when the dried jerky is all gone, etc. Nothing said there!

SHADOW:: right, we need to get that stuff going so they will know

NORSEMAN: Shadow: but I think there is more?

SHADOW:: I've had a lot of people ask about the water situation

VIOLA: Long-Bow, during the last year, do you anticipate that we will be swamped with folks looking to be DIRECTED to a SAFE PLACE, etc.?

SHADOW:: I tell them how to purify it.

ATOM:: What I experienced is that many don't take it seriously, just because "it's not that bad yet." Many comfort themselves, that it just might get better. How to tell them, they should start NOW, as later it may be too late?

SHADOW:: I think so

LONG-BOW: Viola: yes.

SHADOW:: I am asked this continually.

VIOLA: Atom, maybe explaining that subsistence is the only thing that will be possible with only short range planning.

SHADOW:: I have many that say that they will wait until the red dust hits, this is bad.

VIOLA: But if they plan, then their quality of life for themselves and loved ones can move up the ladder, even to high tech, etc.

NORSEMAN: Shadow: that's too late.

VIOLA: For high tech, one needs to plan!

SHADOW:: They want to wait until the last minute. I know it

NORSEMAN: perhaps because in one way or the other they don't think it will happen, they have to see it first.

ATOM:: Shadow: yes, they think in scientific way. I'll wait for the proof! But what is a proof? Proof, strictly scientifically, is when 12th has passed.

VIOLA: When the red dust hits, and the rotation stops, then it is too late already! Travel will be difficult due to panic, etc.,

SHADOW:: That's when I tell them that just buying an extra can of vegetables each week/month will be beneficial

LONG-BOW: I think that the vast majority of folks will wait until the water is red!

SHADOW:: That's right. I explain this to them.

VIOLA: Atom, but the weeks before, the 12th will be increasingly visible in the sky, reddish and moving, etc.,

SHADOW:: I think so too

VIOLA: Also, the weather will be more and more weird, and earthquakes and volcanoes increasing.

SHADOW:: Yes, but I think they will just think that this thing will pass, which it won't.

VIOLA: However, if the establishment keeps telling folks that its just a Sun cycle some such, then no one will take it seriously even then!

SHADOW:: At that time there will be tremendous cover-ups and people will be believing the cover-ups.

LONG-BOW: I also think that the main influence upon most folks will be what the government says about it all.

ATOM:: Viola: yes, but comets come and go (And this is what Hale Bopp is for) and nothing happens. Just that you see it, is not a proof for all the rest. At least not strictly scientific. In this case, scientific way may make you too late. I'm afraid.

NORSEMAN: Shadow: I think you are right

VIOLA: Long, absolutely correct! Then its too late for anything but getting out of a building where you will be crushed if it collapses, and maybe moving to high ground to avoid the tidal waves, etc.

SHADOW:: Yes. I have even heard such stuff as "well, when will the banks be back in business.

VIOLA: The last week, raids of grocery stores so the shelves become bare, and folks sitting on hill tops getting drunk, etc.

SHADOW:: Can you imagine people thinking this.

LONG-BOW: That's why I think that the primitive skills/low tech section will be so important.

SHADOW:: It will be

NORSEMAN: I can't Shadow. It might be that some people think that live will be back to normal after the pole shift.

VIOLA: Shadow, :-) too funny! But this is true! They often think that civilization will just start back up! FEMA will take care of them, etc.

SHADOW:: Yes, and I tell them that that won't happen but they insist it will.

VIOLA: Long, me too, I think we need to lead with this, in the solution set list, start with Subsistence, then Primitive. For instance, subsistence outhouse is do-it-in-the-woods, primitive is build a hut over a hole, etc.

LONG-BOW: Primitive = Subsistence

SHADOW:: I've even had people thinking about putting their money in Israeli banks so that it will be there afterwards. Can you imagine that

VIOLA: Long-Bow, I was thinking that primitive is like Third World countries, and subsistence is like being on foot, dropped into the wilderness just like that. Maybe subsistence is not the right word? I think we all should remember how long it took EACH of use to come to grips with the possibility.

SHADOW:: Reverting back into third world countries will get the people. They are use to comforts

VIOLA: We all are here chatting away but I know for myself it took over a year for me to stop just being in shock a bit!

SHADOW:: Well, it usually takes over months for the human brain to accept this type of thing.

LONG-BOW: In the primitive skills group I participate in, you are sent into the woods, sometimes naked or with only a knife and have to return after a couple days. Most folks will find themselves in just that sort of situation.

ATOM:: In a food section we'll need to cover, how much various foods make you in a need for a drink. With only a little water available, this may be essential!

CARRIE:: Lets not forget our basic instincts. Each person comes equipped with them.

VIOLA: Now I'm into preparing and NO thought about how awful it will be puts me off track, but in those days, I imagined what it would be like, and just grieve a lot!

CARRIE:: Our instincts often tell us HOW to survive when survival seems impossible.


VIOLA: Atom, yes, heavily salted food is no good, but then that's the preservative of choice for many food packages!

NORSEMAN: Carrie: right

CARRIE:: I know that western society has taught people to ignore their own instincts and to rely on others (governments, doctors, etc.) instead.

VIOLA: Folks who have been making house payments, putting money into retirement plans, etc., they have a hard time letting that go and thinking it will be of no use!

SHADOW:: I know that for a fact

VIOLA: There is a reluctance to think that way, as then there is anger at the government, and the conflict of how to live from now until 2003 comes into play.

SHADOW:: That's right sis.

VIOLA: For instance, should they stop paying house payments, or what? Should they buy survival gear, or make the car payments? Then the arguments with spouse and all start, etc.

LONG-BOW: How to live from now till 2003, now THAT is a very good question.

NORSEMAN: Carrie: I think you are right about that trusting on your instincts etc.

SHADOW:: Yes, but if they think for awhile, they will find that they can afford to do both. Just little at a time.

NORSEMAN: Long-Bow: that's a good question, right.

VIOLA: Those of us chatting here have worked that out, we live dual lives, are making plans but living our "normal" lives too.

SHADOW:: Right

ATOM:: Long-Bow: yes, that's what almost worries me more that how to live after 2003.

VIOLA: But I think we're probably a stronger group than the general public, who would move likely move to denial or panic instead of planning like we do.

SHADOW:: Buying extra batteries and such. Anyone can do that.

LONG-BOW: Viola: at least trying to live dual lives.

SHADOW:: True, and its hard.

CARRIE:: The trick is being able to hang on to those batteries during the pole shift upheaval.

SHADOW:: Right. have them in your back pack. That's where mine are at. I constantly replace them too. Medicines too.

CARRIE:: Personally, I think I'll be doing good just keeping my body together through the pole shift. :)

SHADOW:: Super glue : :)

NORSEMAN: That might work :)


SHADOW:: Got a lot of it

CARRIE:: Glue these things to my gluteus maximus - I never seem to lose that!

SHADOW:: True, or the foot, always sticking that in my mouth.

VIOLA: I think that SUBSISTENCE is something that those likely to panic or deny can most deal with. They can continue their lives, but understand in the back of their minds how to boil water to distill it, how to eat grubs and cook up bug soup, whatever, how to survive the pole shift itself, and then continue to live their "normal" lives.

SHADOW:: Right, this can all be done.

CARRIE:: Buzzards! Has anyone thought about buzzards? Seems like they will be plentiful after the pole shift - lots of carrion and all. Are buzzards edible?

SHADOW:: They just have to overcome the panic first, then think logically. Don't know sis.

NORSEMAN: Buzzards??

VIOLA: Carrie, if it moves, it's got protein, my thoughts :-).

SHADOW:: Sounds good to me.

CARRIE:: That's true! And it is FOOD!

SHADOW:: Right

VIOLA: High Tech will be the last thing panicked last minute folks will be looking at, but some will look for that FIRST

SHADOW:: Have we got a page on how to skin animals and such?

LONG-BOW: Subsistence is something that can be done now. For 4 years, my back pack has always been ready to take to the hills. That lowers the anxiety level and allows me to think beyond sheer survival.

ATOM:: I think what most is afraid of is not pure conditions, but that they'll need to think for themselves. Now: wake up, jump on Bus 14, then the boss will tell you what to do, the TV will show you something for the evening, then bed, and here we go again. Later: they must think where to get food, think how to repair this (where's that neighbor who fixed it?), etc.

NORSEMAN: Shadow: no, but it might be that we need one. But there are people who don't want to skin an animal.

VIOLA: Some will come in wanting to set themselves up from the start so that they have high tech - indoor gardening, computer communications, lights all day/night long, etc.

SHADOW:: Yes, but everyone should know how to skin an animal just in case.

VIOLA: Atom, these dependent folks will NOT come into TT wanting instructions on how to survive, they will want to learn where to go to be taken care of!

SHADOW:: There won't be many animals but it should be thought of.

ATOM:: Viola: yes, you're right.

SHADOW:: That's true, oh so true

VIOLA: I think many have in mind that there will be safe places with large tents set up, food lines, and then the government will start with work teams, etc.

CARRIE:: How to pluck a buzzard :-)

NORSEMAN: Shadow: rabbits, chickens.

SHADOW:: Yes, they have asked that about the government to me. High class people do not know how to do this though.

VIOLA: The thought that government will not be functioning as all individuals are more concerned with their own families, etc., is a hard concept to grasp! Especially since the governments are always telling them that they ARE in charge, etc., and not being honest with folks.

CARRIE:: But they can learn - and they will if they have to.

SHADOW:: I was even told that there would be tents set up. I asked where did they get that idea from. No answer

NORSEMAN: Shadow: probably the establishment.

VIOLA: Shadow, this is assumed as after hurricanes, etc., this is what is done! Floods, go to the local school and get free meals, etc.

SHADOW:: Probably. Right, I know that, but they don't. They expect it though, poor souls

LONG-BOW: There are many "closed" military bases that FEMA intends to use. I wonder for what?

VIOLA: The fact that we're advocating self-help is certainly not missed by anyone who reads page 1 of TT. Says so in essence right on the home page.

SHADOW:: That's right

NORSEMAN: This will be a different situation then surviving a hurricane or a tornado.

VIOLA: Long-Bow, my thought is that they will want to set up GOVERNMENT first there, and only deal with the populace when they themselves are comfortable.

LONG-BOW: Viola: agree


VIOLA: For instance, they themselves would be fed and sheltered, in communications with each other, and then here come the populace, broken and hungry and reaching out to be helped.

SHADOW:: Riots will emerge then

VIOLA: They probably think they will take folks in and direct their activities, in work camps, as they CAN, but will turn away those people they don't want to bother with.

SHADOW:: Right

VIOLA: I can see a gate, where some are allowed in both most sit outside and cry!

LONG-BOW: It is also rumored that some will be used to "encamp" dissident groups in the last days to avert panic from the public.


VIOLA: This is their thought, I think, so they see themselves at the center of any new civilization that restarts. However, this is so far from what will really happen!

SHADOW:: I imagine that during the last few weeks, we will be attacked. (our group).

NORSEMAN: Long-Bow: only in the states but also in other countries?

VIOLA: Generals will try to set themselves up in power, and troops will go AWOL to their families, will steal supplies and disappear.

VIOLA: Then the groups, the self help groups, that have set up survival groups, will be stronger! The so-called government will fritter away with infighting, etc. My thoughts. Shadow, what kind of attack? Panic attack, or physical attack, or what? I think we will be mobbed with inquiries, not attacked. I think what we are doing, if putting up solution sets, is in the interest of ALL.

LONG-BOW: If one reads the executive orders relating to this, it scares one to death. In an event such as the last days the president relinquishes power to FEMA. They will then even have power over the us military. It is all public record.

VIOLA: We are not a threat to the establishment, in fact play into their plans!

VIOLA: For instance, instead of having starving people outside the gate, they would think that there would be groups growing food, etc.

NORSEMAN: Viola: but why does things as last week etc. happen if we aren't a threat?

SHADOW:: I mean people coming in trying to destroy the group as usual but more of it.

VIOLA: Then they can start collecting taxes of sorts, this is what they would think, or simply commandeer the goods, take it by right of government domain, etc. Long-Bow, right, they plan on martial law in the last weeks. They plan to take over farms, commandeer it all!

LONG-BOW: Viola is correct, the right to commandeer anything is in the executive orders.

VIOLA: This is what folks don't realize, that unless they institute self-help, they may NOT have anything!

NORSEMAN: Viola: didn't read about that, only the US but also other governments?

SHADOW:: I think we will be attacked every week by

more people who don't want the word to get out.

SHADOW:: as time gets closer

VIOLA: They can't assume that anything they have such as a home or car will even be theirs afterwards, may be taken ahead of time!

SHADOW:: I think so

VIOLA: Only what they can carry, etc., portable, or what they have stashed ahead of time and can carry, will be theirs.

LONG-BOW: Norseman: the executive orders apply only in US.

VIOLA: Shadow, I suspect this kind of attack will just continue as it is NOW! We're nuts, etc., or as they say on the Usenets, I'm just trying to sell a book, etc.

SHADOW:: You know, if people sat down and thought about it for awhile, why isn't the government fixing the economy, this would probably get them to thinking about what is going to happen. Why would the government fix the economy. They know what is about to happen.

ATOM:: Longbow: not really, we had an executive order that army can take all jeeps and similar cars during war if in need. I think it still stands, and will for other things too.

NORSEMAN: Long-Bow: maybe because of that a lot of Europe will be under water after the pole shift.

SHADOW:: Yeah, I know, but they will find out.

VIOLA: I think the attack will be countering messages, that the problems with the weather, etc. are caused by Sun cycles, etc.

SHADOW:: All that we have to worry about is putting the word out.

LONG-BOW: Norseman: I think those powers will be enacted by individual governments.


NORSEMAN: Viola: like that news about that Solarthing on CNN last week, and that their will be more of those kind in the next years.

VIOLA: I think we should just assume that folks will call us nuts, or whatever, and proceed with our work. Kind of like rain or snow, assume it and ignore it when it comes.

LONG-BOW: Viola: agree

SHADOW:: Yes, but I do think when the time nears, we will all be blocked from communicating with each other

VIOLA: What usually happens with the establishment starts to flounder is that MANY groups try to take control. For instance, in the last weeks, when martial law is put into place, I suspect that this will NOT be smooth! There will most likely be infighting, and this will occupy those wanting to be in power, so that the populace may in fact get a break!

SHADOW:: I know that, don't I.

LONG-BOW: I don't think that the US government will flounder at all UNTIL the pole shift. FEMA will insure that with the military.

VIOLA: This is what happened in Egypt, when Moses took his people across the Red Sea during the last pole shift.

SHADOW:: Right

VIOLA: The soldiers in Egypt were distracted, and the generals went into their power hungry mode and concerned themselves with bringing the troops into line.

NORSEMAN: Shadow: that might happen,, but there are much more ways to communicate besides the Internet right ?

SHADOW:: Right

VIOLA: Thus, the Jews got away! Not slaves any more, etc.

SHADOW:: Right

VIOLA: Shadow, maybe yes and maybe no! There may be more ways to chat then than now, and you're assuming that those wanting to block us won't have bigger problems! I suspect we'll be the least of their worries.

SHADOW:: True. Hopefully.

NORSEMAN: Agree.. Viola.. I think in the last weeks they will have other problems etc. on their minds.

LONG-BOW: RE: Norseman: I think that as many of us that can should get ham radio licensee long before the pole shift. They CAN'T stop that.

VIOLA: Remember when Haig went on TV and said "I'm in charge" when he wasn't even in the line of succession? This happened in the US, when the President was hurt, etc. These power hungry types THINK like that, and this is their MAIN concern! There will be infighting galore! Long-Bow, an EXCELLENT idea! Yes, we should expect that we need to be setup as Aftertime re communications well before hand. However, also need to realize that the government or other groups will want to place and track survival groups, so they can come and commandeer. Most important to be understated and quiet about who is going to locate where! It's not their business! The surviving group can keep this private! If they are caring for themselves, why should anyone else need to know! No reporting to the government, no census type thing, etc.

LONG-BOW: Ham radio is NOT that difficult to get license for. Just learn Morse code and a little electronics, which we'll need in Aftertime anyway.

NORSEMAN: Right, Long-Bow

VIOLA: There was a clue that under martial law, folks wanting to leave for their survival sites may be stopped along the road, asked where they are going, etc. They will need to expect this type of control maneuver from government, and not use the main highways, etc., to go to their sites. Long-Bow, I myself plan to do it for sure!

LONG-BOW: Viola: correct, according to the executive orders.

VIOLA: So for this reason, maybe they will institute martial law well ahead of time, weeks ahead of time! On the other hand, if they do this, they've alerted the populace and panic would ensue!

LONG-BOW: As far as Ham Radio goes, I have my license and will be happy to help others.

VIOLA: I'd love to know their plans. Maybe martial law gets put into place WHEN panic ensue.

LONG-BOW: I expect FEMA control when climate, FOOD, etc. get really bad, as much as a year ahead of the pole shift.

VIOLA: For one thing, they are assuming that a populace used to democracy is going to be cooperative under martial law I think the infighting and resistance will keep them occupied, so survival groups can proceed with their plans. Especially if they have stuff portable and set out to their sites in small groups, or individually. A YEAR ahead! This would bring its own problems to them, though! I think it will happen only in the last week, the week the earth has stopped rotation.

LONG-BOW: Guns currently in the hands of the US populace are NO MATCH for an infantry platoon. Martial law is rough business. Only chance is to run, hide, and not get caught.

VIOLA: Here's why! Panic and rioting will bring everything to a stop! The establishment will probably want to go to their safe places by jet or helicopter at the last minute, and know they CAN.

NORSEMAN: Yes, now they CAN

VIOLA: Always the need to institute martial law will be balanced by not wanting to start a panic. How can they explain martial law if they don't ADMIT to the 12th, etc. Long-Bow, I don't think the infantry will be very cooperative, when they realize what is about to happen, etc.

LONG-BOW: Admit the 12th Planet and say that they will be able to protect us if we cooperate. They don't have to reveal the WHOLE truth about the 12th.

VIOLA: Long-Bow, their only chance, yes, but I can see those discussions about SHOULD they do this running all the way into the last week!

NORSEMAN: Long-Bow: I think that they will only reveal a small part. Use different words etc.


VIOLA: But guys! As soon as they say this is real, then total panic would ensue! No one would go to work! Everyone would be asking what the government plans to do!

SHADOW:: Right Won't the atmosphere be disturbed during that time

VIOLA: There is nothing they CAN do! Think about emptying a city, for instance, and setting up tents!

SHADOW:: Oh, okay, just wondering. Thanks

VIOLA: This alone would stop such a plan, as they can't even do that for ONE city, let alone all.

SHADOW:: War. Won't a war be going on at the time?

ATOM:: There's always a reason for martial law. If not 12th, then there will be "terrorists"...

VIOLA: Shadow, there will be wars galore. Infighting.

LONG-BOW: Martial law would only be needed when panic has started. Panic will start when FOOD gets too short.

VIOLA: They will have to institute martial law for other reasons, and this is being set up already, TWA 800 for instance, shot down as an excuse by those who want to institute martial law, yes.

SHADOW:: I'm thinking though of world war 3. Isn't that suppose to happen or not?

VIOLA: But there isn't complete agreement, etc. Those wanting this are not really in control!

NORSEMAN: Shadow: I don't think there will be a WW3

VIOLA: Long-Bow, our chubby nation has a lot of food around the belt, so I don't think this will be it altogether.

SHADOW:: I know that steel has went up and that army camps are practicing. Keeping my eyes open.

VIOLA: Today, street people and the poor starve, nations in Africa, or North Korea, for instance, starve, and there is NO martial law. I think prices will go up, some will get rich because of this, but no martial law. Shadow, lots of prophecy, Nostradamus interpretation, etc. Not a given, WW 3, in my mind.

LONG-BOW: Viola: how long before the pole shift does ZetaTalk say the weather will cause mass crop shortages?

VIOLA: Long-Bow, 3 years ahead. But remember, many nations are already starving, and this is just ignored by the well off, basically.

LONG-BOW: USA Today says US has less than a month of surplus foods.

VIOLA: In our nation, US, the shelves may be bare and prices go up, but no panic I think. Long-Bow, no kidding! Its worse than I thought! I do think that folks will start doing their own gardens, but this is a GOOD thing!