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icon 15-Dec-96

Note: it is a general Troubled Times policy to change the names of IRC participants to screen names and remove personal discussions that occurred during the chat in the interests of privacy.

SHADOW: no one is here yet

NORSEMAN: Carrie will come here any minute she is under a clonebot attack

CARRIE: Whew! Thanks, Norseman. Had lots of problems getting in. Then I got a clonebot attack from Ragman. Norseman had to disable the pass so that I could get in. In the meantime I got a bunch of unknown server messages about Wallops :Hack. Someone is playing with us here.

NORSEMAN: I think so. Maybe that idiot guy. Do you know who?

CARRIE: Probably one of his friends. Or something that he set up.

NORSEMAN: Maybe, but I think they won't succeed today.

SHADOW: Has Viola tried to make it

CARRIE: She's not here. I think [the disrupter] set something up

NORSEMAN: But I am sure that Viola will show up

CARRIE: I don't thinks so, Norse. I keep getting Hack messages and we are on the same server

NORSEMAN: Carrie: I think that the hacker will stop if he noticed that it doesn't work. :)

CARRIE: Something is keeping her from signing on

NORSEMAN: She will show up. I think that we don't need to worry about that. If not we will have our chat on the listserver, right? :)

CARRIE: Got some more hack messages

SHADOW: Really, like what? It's definitely him for sure. I know that much right now.

NORSEMAN: Yes, what kind of message? Just give the nick and I will do a /whois

CARRIE: Me to. You and Ragman (who is flooding with bots) are on the same IRC server

CARRIE: Morcar

CARRIE: Morcar is Ed Campbell

CARRIE: Alby: did you have any problems getting in?

ALBY: Only a clonebot from I use Vancouver.BC.CA.Undernet.Org, is good

CARRIE: I think this guy is running clonebots through all the server. I keep getting these Morcar channel switch messages We have got a few problems here today. Don't think the meeting is going to happen.

SHADOW: So I am seeing. Damn it.

CARRIE: I think we need to terminate and try again at another time.

NORSEMAN: I don't have a problem..

CARRIE: I think he is using Ragman and Morcar

SHADOW: Damn it. This is really pissing me off. Short fuse today

CARRIE: He is messing with me with all these damn messages I'm getting.

SHADOW: Really

CARRIE: I'm getting a lot of channel mode switch messages made by Morcar (Ed Campbell)

CARRIE: [The disrupter] is firmly NWO

SHADOW: I know

CARRIE: Just like were are STO. I don't think he is going to leave us alone.

CARRIE: I think we need to make these meeting private for awhile - you know: not announce them on the list. Just invite those we know are OK.

SHADOW: yes, I think this would be the best way. You are right about that

CARRIE: Viola is probably very frustrated right now.

SHADOW: To say the least

NORSEMAN: But she will show up

SHADOW: I don't know about that for sure, not if [the disrupter] is blocking

CARRIE: I'm going to contact Morcar

NORSEMAN: Shadow: sure the NWO is behind it.

SHADOW: We have to figure out something though. Alby, are you still here? Either its [the disrupter] or the government, it's one of the two

CARRIE: I think making these meeting private for awhile may be the way.

SHADOW: That's the only way.

NORSEMAN: I even tried another server if Viola was there, and she wasn't.

NORSEMAN: It's damn weird. I don't like it

ALBY: Norseman, nothing to do, I will go, bye bye.

NORSEMAN: Okay. Yes the same shit as last week. Bye. Someone is trying to disturb the meeting

VIOLA: Hi Norseman! I just got up. I thought the chat was 8:00 my time, and its 7:25 now. Oh, my mistake, 10:00 EST is 7:00 Pacific time. Guess I screwed up.

NORSEMAN: The others left..

VIOLA: I got an e-mail from Shadow saying you and Carrie and Alby and she left

NORSEMAN: But I emailed them, so maybe they will show up.

VIOLA: Maybe others will come. Maybe they will come back

NORSEMAN: I didn't leave, I thought maybe you would show up, and you did.

NORSEMAN: What now, next week?

VIOLA: No, no, if you e-mailed them then lets chat, others sometimes come in after an hour also. They'll probably come back.

VIOLA: Did you have a topic in mind?

NORSEMAN: Maybe about the social list, as that was last week topic

VIOLA: Oh yeah! How's it going? Did you have e-mail passing around? What are the topics or are they too personal to mention?

NORSEMAN: We don't have any email yet passing around. Don't know why. Maybe they don't know what to do or how to join?

VIOLA: So, why don't you and Carrie and Shadow START an e-mail? That's the way you get things going. Lots of times, folks don't want to start a topic, or they don't know how.

NORSEMAN: Maybe that's an idea.

VIOLA: But they can comment like crazy once someone else does.

NORSEMAN: By the way, I think it's good idea, to forward the message to the others who joined social TT

VIOLA: I've noticed that in running meetings. If you bring an idea to the meeting, and place it on the table so to speak, then there's lot of discussion about the idea.

NORSEMAN: Yes, right.

VIOLA: But if you just say, anyone with ideas? The place is silent as a tomb.


NORSEMAN: I will email Shadow and Carrie, .that we start with a topic.

VIOLA: Maybe everyone is shy to say the first word, etc. Start with a couple topics, so that folks see the silence is broken, etc. Lots of contactees in the group, so that could be one topic for sure.

NORSEMAN: Yes,, that could be a topic for sure.

VIOLA: Also, the big one, how friends and family take the pole shift thing, ridicule or whatever.

NORSEMAN: Dreams etc.

VIOLA: Everyone has those problems.

NORSEMAN: Yes, right.

VIOLA: I checked our Italian mirror site, and he has the welcome in Italian - its neat!

NORSEMAN: Really.. :)

VIOLA: I think in a year or two that we will have mirror sites in many countries, partially translated into that language.

NORSEMAN: I think that mirror sites are important.

VIOLA: This should be a very interesting year, 1997. Much happening. Last year at this time, we had a tiny group, maybe 6 people! Now we have about 30 members.

NORSEMAN: And I think that next year we will have much more members.

VIOLA: What will happen is that splinter groups will start to form as we get large, so that there will be subgroups that are interested in certain topics.

NORSEMAN: Yes, subgroups. A lot of them I think.

VIOLA: My thought is that we need to keep the list serve going and post all important discussion THERE, not just in splinter group e-mail copy lists. For instance, there could be a splinter group on, say, hydroponics. They talk about details on pH levels of the water or whatever. Then they reach a conclusion, or someone reports on an article they found that explains how to fix the problems. At this point they should cross post to the regular TT list.

NORSEMAN: Yes, in that way the subgroups can concentrate themselves on one topic.

VIOLA: So it would be the coordinators responsibility to cross post when they see that this point has been reached.


VIOLA: I can imagine, with the disruption we've had over the past 4-5 months with folks trying to break up TT, that subgroup formation and control may be an avenue they will try. Yes, one topic. For instance, one could see the storage of electricity in batteries being of intense interest to Rubellus and Atom but not the rest in particular. If they wanted to talk real technical.

NORSEMAN: Yes, and I think that the disruption will get worse.

VIOLA: I personally think as long as the list serve doesn't have more than a couple dozen postings a day, that the discussions should all be left on the list serve. You can imagine, the saying is, divide and conquer. In other words, if you are having trouble conquering, then divide the group so that conquering becomes easier.

NORSEMAN: Yes, you're right about that.

VIOLA: This is why the Social TT is in a good position, as with the coordinators involved, conquering won't happen!

NORSEMAN: Agree, we can prevent such a thing from happening.

VIOLA: I think that's a military term, divide and conquer. Fight on two flanks so that the army is divided in two, and thus conquer, etc. Maybe the general gets distracted, doesn't watch both fronts.

NORSEMAN: Maybe that's what happened today with the chat, someone was sending hack messages to Carrie. She couldn't join the channel, when it was password protected.

VIOLA: So, in setting up any subgroups, it will be important to NOT do so unless a trusted member is a coordinator.

NORSEMAN: I had to disable the password connection for a few moments, until she joined.

VIOLA: Really! Bummer! Today I'm not being bothered!

NORSEMAN: Maybe they thought, let's try the others?

VIOLA: Yes, if only I got hit, then it would look deliberate. The problems I had last week included crashing 48 times with a message Error Has Occurred; getting the message Nickname In Use for Viola999, Viola91, Viola92, Viola97 even when I was using them for the first time; ponging out; got the message This Site Has Been Banned 5 times, even from a site I was just connected to minutes before; reaching servers at Washington DC, San Diego, Toronto, South Carolina, and LA before crashing; getting kicked off Toronto 4 times with a CloneBot message. I kept trying, 100 different times during the hour. Rebooted 9 times, tried 2 different PC's we have at home here, tried 3 different Netcom servers in the Bay Area here, tried dozens of variations on Viola, used nicknames like Hahahaha and Smear and Tryagain. So I was pretty sure I was being messed with.

VIOLA: Then I talked to Netcom support and learned that all of this could be easily done with scripts installed on the Undernet servers. They said hackers try to take over chats by creating splits, then inserting themselves in as the ops, then kicking everyone else off, then THEY are in control. He said also that each PC has a unique identifier, so that the script can target a single individual, send messages back making them thing they are having real problems like nickname in use, etc. There were some legitimate explanations, like nickhandler hickuping or sites such as Netcom being banned due to unruly people using Netcom as an Internet Provider, but the number of problems just didn't seem real. After all, if a script was mocking real problems, one couldn't tell unless the script goofed up. You know, getting onto San Diego one minute and then getting a Site Banned message then next was too quick, in my opinion.

VIOLA: You know, my husband is building me an NT server, so I can practice on it at home, programs and the like. Eventually, we, TT, will have our own servers, and NT has security that UNIX does not. So, there are solutions around the corner for us!

NORSEMAN: Maybe even a own IRC server?

VIOLA: Next year at this time, I think that we will have at least one prototype site, maybe more. Most likely it will be the one I'm planning, but I wouldn't be surprised if more than one person joins who has the room for prototype experimentation. IRC? YES! This too could happen within the next year, conceivable!

NORSEMAN: Yes, prototype sites are important. I think that next year will be a important year!

VIOLA: Maybe one person has a windmill, and reports in detail on what it produces for them, etc. Reports on what type of equipment they use, take pictures that we convert to .gif and put on the Internet. Maybe another on has a hydroponic bed, recycles the water and reports in detail on at what point they have to add acid or lime to the water or whatever to keep the pH balance correct. So, prototype sites don't have to be the WHOLE THING. However, that's more or less what I want to establish, the whole thing.

VIOLA: There's a place in Australia, Rainbow Power, the place that Rubellus pointed us to and he uses their products. They generate their own electricity and all, use the products they sell

NORSEMAN: Agree,. maybe I will start a prototype to, but we don't have much place in our country.

VIOLA: Rainbow runs all their computers and everything from their own electric generation Right, but not every member needs to participate. Most members running a limited prototype site will have ALREADY been doing that activity. Like Rubellus. He has a personal site and reports on his progress. He has a type of crab in a dammed area he built, and they already eat those crabs.

NORSEMAN: I still wonder, about electricity, as how to make a connection with computers.

VIOLA: There are a lot of areas where things are not smooth yet. Electricity is one of them. We can generate from windmills and water wheels (solar won't work in the gloom). And storage in 12 volt batteries. But what if the batteries wear out, how to replace, and the light bulb thing is not a happy solution yet. Our computers don't run on direct current. However, there are converters. But I think these converters use up a lot of power in the conversion. To grow vegetables and fruit, one needs intense light, like sunlight simulation. I don't know if windmills will sustain that.

NORSEMAN: Ultraviolet light..

VIOLA: So there are lots of problems that need to be tested and solutions found. Very important activity over this next year or two.


NORSEMAN: We are talking about electricity

VIOLA: Sorry for being late! I got confused about the starting hour, I was 25 minutes late getting here!

VIOLA: We were just talking about what to expect this next year in TT. About prototype sites and what they might be like, limited sites and total sites. About where the problem areas lie, like for instance needing to convert direct current in order to run computers. One area that I think will progress over the next 2-4 years is computer, WWW, use.


VIOLA: Microsoft has entered the Internet area with a fury, and has great plans

NORSEMAN: We have to test a lot of things we mentioned on our site.

VIOLA: I myself plan to get an NT server with the eye to being our own Internet Provider, or one of them, anyway. For instance, I could host chat sessions, and prevent the types of problems we have been having.

NORSEMAN: Viola: and a fast connection?

VIOLA: So, folks will have cable or wireless communication to the Internet, and this would be a great thing to have in place prior to the pole shift.

ALBY: Personally I hate Microsoft, here in Italy they are arrogant.

VIOLA: This way, we if we can just shift to short-wave, communication will already be in place in people's homes.

ALBY: I meet often Microsoft managers. They're arrogant everywhere! :-) It seems to speak with gods.

VIOLA: Many people avoid them just for that reason.

NORSEMAN: But that's Microsoft.. :)

VIOLA: Its always important to have alternatives, and for Microsoft products there always needs to be an alternative. Its only good business to have that in place. Anyway, I don't think that UNIX will EVER be put aside. It just doesn't work that way. What do you think are some of the most important areas that we need to address over this next year? Last year we addressed food, and shelter, and minimal electric lights. These are of course the things that folks think about. Being cold and hungry and sitting in the dark.

NORSEMAN: Electricity, food, health

VIOLA: Maybe this next year we will refine these topics. Or maybe others will be the hot topics for the year. For instance, during the latter half of this year, safe locations became a hot topic.

ALBY: A system to communicate between large distance, because communicate is fundamental for organization and for rebuilding what will be destroyed.

VIOLA: YES, the communication problems! Absolutely, imagine if we don't have a means to chemically produce Vitamin C, and folks find their bottled tablets running out.

NORSEMAN: Communication problems, good topic.

VIOLA: Then someone on the Internet in the Aftertime finds a solution, and lets everyone else know! Destroyed, yup. I'm amazed that folks think that things will get up and running right afterwards, or else they think the world will be totally destroyed.

ALBY: One solution, will be a network of repeaters, one repeater for each town.

VIOLA: Well, these pole shifts happen to some degree every 3,600 years, and the human race is still here.

NORSEMAN: Viola: agree with you. The human race is still here.

ALBY: I had spoken with my colleague, expert in radio communication, and he said that he would be able to build repeaters between two locations.

VIOLA: Repeater meaning boosters, or someone who passing it along? Alby, really! That's just great!

VIOLA: Repeater in short wave radio?

ALBY: Short wave, yes. Like FM

NORSEMAN: Interesting.

VIOLA: There are a lot of holes in our solution sets, thought they are pretty comprehensive. I think this next year some of the holes will be filled in, and the solution sets be workable as a total solution. For instance, the thing about light bulbs, that's still pretty spotty. We can take our car batteries and headlights and yes, have light, but the batteries will wear out and the headlights eventually burn out too. Then what? Also, this is not a bright enough light to grown vegetation with. They need sunlight equivalents. We need a light bulb that can be produced by hand at the survivor sites, and that will be as bright as sunlight. I thought that carbon arc lamps might be the solution, but Rubellus says they are very inefficient. They were used at the turn of the century to light London streets, and I'm wondering if even the lead inside pencils could be used for the carbon tips.

ALBY: I will try to convince my colleague expert in radio communication, to join. He will be useful

VIOLA: Alby, great! I think he would be superb! When we start to have prototype sites, and use our own solutions sets, that's when we'll find out how bad they are! Before you came one, I and Norseman were talking about limited prototype sites, where only one solution is tested and reported on, etc. I work in the computer field, and when we build systems we don't test the whole thing all at once, we first test parts separately. So, this would be a good way to approach survival solution sets. Test then separately, then put them together.

NORSEMAN: And we have to do the same thing with the proto sites?

VIOLA: Of course, many of the solutions we are recommending already are out there and being used.

NORSEMAN: You're right Viola.

VIOLA: Prototype sites COULD be limited to one aspect or the other, or COULD be total!

NORSEMAN: Viola: but some of them aren't yet used, or haven't been used for many years.

VIOLA: For instance, the one I have in mind would demonstrate and use the solutions, but the main house would remain as is, on the power grid, etc. At some point, we could cut over to use our own power, etc., if sufficient. No hard and fast rules about prototype sites. In essence, we already have our first, in that Rubellus has a personal site and gives us reports. Yes, right Norseman, and there are holes in the solutions sets.

NORSEMAN: Maybe there will some prototype sites in Europe too.

VIOLA: I recommend folks spin and weave cloth, but this is a lost art in many countries due to the Industrial Revolution. Cloth making is mechanized, and we all think in terms of walking into stores and buying a shirt!

NORSEMAN: Viola: so we have to look in history books etc., to find out how the people lived etc. in the last century and before.

VIOLA: One of the things I want to put on display, and USE, at the prototype site I have in mind, is how to spin and weave and sew by hand. History and many countries are still doing things in a primitive way! Although, I think bolts of cloth were one of the first things to make inroads into Third World countries. One thing I discovered in someone's attic was an old sewing machine that ran by foot power, via a treadmill. No one ever wanted it, and suddenly I want it real bad! Just the thing!

NORSEMAN: We need such machines.

VIOLA: Something that TT can grow in during the next year is diagrams showing the parts of these things, and how they work. I tried to do that in the weaving and spinning section. I tried to show the basic concepts and moving parts, etc. So that someone could build one if necessary.

NORSEMAN: Diagrams, good idea.

VIOLA: I think we need this same basic diagrams on the gist of how things work on many level, like electricity storage and the like. Light bulbs, when we figure out how to create them at a survival site. We need diagrams showing folks how to construct them. And think of computers! If the parts break, how will folks communicate! Ah, you know, in the old days, teletype was a primitive way of communications, but this or voice can go a long way to relaying ideas!

NORSEMAN: Viola: Morse code?

VIOLA: So, maybe the computer doesn't work, and chats or graphics can't be sent, but maybe the fallback could be teletype or voice over short wave, etc. Yes, worst case, Morse code.

NORSEMAN: But not everybody knows it.

VIOLA: In the movies, there are situations sometimes where a doctor over the phone has to tell someone how to do an operation on a person who would otherwise die. It gets done! I'm sure these situations happen in real life, too, not just the movies. Something else that could happen during this next year is media exposure, getting articles written about us and the like, getting interviewed, etc. I wonder what spin the media will put on our group - crackpots?

ALBY: What are crackpots?

VIOLA: Crazy people

ALBY: Ah!!:))

NORSEMAN: Sometimes I think, what about women who are to give birth, if there are no doctors in the neighborhood.

VIOLA: However, if we get interviewed, etc., then it will be because there are MANY groups like ours, and many people nervous about the millennium, the prophecies. So, that alone, the fact that the article is even getting written, says that many think this not so crazy.

NORSEMAN: Viola: maybe they will call us crackpots, but we are different then the other groups.

VIOLA: Fortunately, giving birth is a natural process. Only time doctors are NEEDED is if the baby won't come, is too large for the birth channel, then the woman and baby die unless a C Section is done. In most countries, and in centuries past, women died in childbirth a LOT.

NORSEMAN: Yes, I heard about that.

VIOLA: So, back to the old days. Teeth fall out as no dentist to clean away the plaque, etc.

NORSEMAN: But a person can live without no teeth.. :)

VIOLA: But some of these problems have easy answers.

NORSEMAN: Viola: Yes.

VIOLA: For instance, tooth cleaning can be done with ultra sound, applied to the teeth it vibrates the plaque away. Anyone could run the equipment. And C Sections for childbirth, the womb is very close to the surface, and if one is sterile, it would be possible to DO this for those women. I read about a situation, where a butcher or somebody had a wife who was going to die.


VIOLA: He cut her open, took the baby out, and cut her tubes so she could no longer conceive, sewed her back up, and she lived! Probably had a fever and fought infection for awhile, but folks do THAT all the time.

NORSEMAN: Yes, but she lived.

VIOLA: I expect over the next 6 years that refinements on our solutions sets will take place, so that we offer MANY solutions sets. For instance, for food there could be the basic - Vitamin C from a bottle, tables, eat bugs and worms raw, and drink rain water caught as it drains from a roof. Not much of a life! But one would live! Then the next level up, one can cook the bugs and worms, and grows mushrooms and some low light vegetables. Then, the next step up, one has hydroponics or garden beds with simulated sunlight, they even grow strawberries, etc. Then, the next step up, they recycle their sewage into fish ponds and grow muscles and crabs and the like too. They eat WELL.

VIOLA: Likewise, in shelter, the basic is huddling in blankets out of the rain. Then, the next step, having tents to live in. Then, the next step, having homes built into hillsides, using earth for walls, etc., or straw bale homes. Primitive but one can walk around and heat the place with a fire. Then, the next step, they use concrete bags or whatever to construct homes not much different from today in what we call civilized countries.

VIOLA: Lights, the first level, they have NO lights and use up their few matches quickly. The gloom of the day is all they have. Then the next step, they have fires, collect things that burn and dry them out. Then, the next step, they have windmills or water wheels and run headlight lamps from their car batteries. Then, the next step, they have electrical equipment that can run on direct 12 volt and have lamps and computers and everything.

NORSEMAN: How may years will it take before live will go on as usual, after the PS?

VIOLA: How many years? I think it is centuries, even millennia. For this reason. Now it's just a short term recovery, like after an earthquake or hurricane. It's that the technology gets LOST. Folks die and fail to pass it along to the little ones, or the little ones don't understand what they have been told. They are concerned with survival, and due to this, schooling and the ability to practice what they are learning.

NORSEMAN: Viola: but after some time technology will get back :)

VIOLA: For instance, writing. You could teach your children written language, but unless they had paper to write to each other, this lesson would not STICK. Then the old teacher dies, and the ones taught teach the next generation, but they are even less motivated to learn, and eventually everyone just stops. So, the great civilizations of China just DISAPPEARED. They fall back to the stone ages, almost. Fur clothing and hunting and the like, in some cases. Civilization must start anew, again, or essentially does that. Maybe some little places where this or that is retained, and must spread out again among other peoples. The danger is that thugs, sadistic gangs, don't care about teaching and technology. Where they rule, technology dies out because of this. So, technology and methods can be retained, but a gang come in and kill folks and the like, and then it is lost.

NORSEMAN: So, education could be a important topic for next year?

VIOLA: Agreed! As children have to know how to deal with the new machines, etc. etc. In that way they can teach their children, and so on. Education, what and how to teach, is something we have not addressed or barely mentioned. Yes.

SHADOW: Your still here and you finally made it.

VIOLA: We're talking about the year ahead, essentially.

VIOLA: What do you see could be the major things we will be addressing this next year?

SHADOW: Well, like you said, education, SECURITY.

VIOLA: Security meaning how to protect survival groups from gangs?

SHADOW: Yes, these groups will be infiltrated.

VIOLA: In education, like everything else, we need to be specific on what is taught to children.

SHADOW: This is true

VIOLA: So much of education is just teaching children how to sit still, be polite, be quiet, etc.

SHADOW: We need education materials

NORSEMAN: Viola: Yes there are more people like [the disrupter]

SHADOW: yes, that's right

VIOLA: Then rules and regulations are taught, and often religious beliefs. Children learn the Pledge of Allegiance to the US first thing!

SHADOW: Well, as far as religious beliefs, it won't be hard to teach for these children will have went through the worst.

VIOLA: To truly have education stick, it is important to have the child work with what they have been taught right away. Learn - do - then it sticks.

NORSEMAN: Viola: but in the aftertime that will change, children have to know how to deal with the life in the aftertime..


VIOLA: Also, they should be taught the concepts as they work maintenance on the survival systems.

SHADOW: We will be going mainly back to the olden times when things weren't so easy. This will probably be taught plus things like math and such.

VIOLA: If they help repair the water wheels, they can learn, at the knee of whomever, how water wants to fall and how to utilize this, etc.


VIOLA: Concepts like the siphon can be explained and demonstrated.

SHADOW: And nothing like hands on experience.

VIOLA: Mechanical concepts can be taught while the spinning wheel or door knob is being repaired.

SHADOW: This helps teach them easier.


VIOLA: In others words, the children spread out and help with the chores, and the adults take time out to explain things to them as they go along.


SHADOW: They will then learn a great deal.

VIOLA: If one wanted to teach simple math, say we have 100 people and we have a bushel of berries. To give all an equal amount, count them and divide.

SHADOW: With all the teachings that they receive, this will help them when they decide to travel out into the lonely world.

VIOLA: The child learns and does at the same time, etc.


VIOLA: If a type of Internet is functioning, this will help encourage children to learn different languages, etc.

SHADOW: I know that I learn much easier if I do something than if I read something.

VIOLA: I think, myself personally, that I learn something when I see a NEED for it. Then I'm highly motivated.

NORSEMAN: Practical...

SHADOW: Yes, this is true

VIOLA: I'm going to start an education icon and topic in the Information area, and include what we've just said as a starter.

NORSEMAN: And I think that people will see the need to learn something after the PS has happened, so they will be motivated. Sure about that.

SHADOW: I've asked [the disrupter] to teach me how to block or direct me to info on it. First he says he knows nothing, then he does.

VIOLA: I think our group will not fall apart unless we LET it.

SHADOW: He seems to have a split personality from what I am seeing

NORSEMAN: And we are so strong.. so the group won't fall apart.

SHADOW: And we are pretty strong.

VIOLA: For instance, if we are suckers and follow some stupid lead, go down wrong paths, then we go down due to our own lack of purpose or stupidity. This will be the only way that we will fall apart.

SHADOW: I know.

SHADOW: I mean [the disrupter] he is more than one person. One personality takes over at one time.

VIOLA: When our group was in the early stages, and we had so many really talented folks coming on board, I thought, this is so we can form a tight and strong core group.

SHADOW: I am seeing this in him.

VIOLA: No more did that happen then the challenges started! We've met every challenge!

NORSEMAN: Shadow: I know what you mean, that he has MPD

SHADOW: Oh, I know that Viola

SHADOW: Yes Norseman

VIOLA: [The disrupter] does NOT have a split personality, for real, he's just lying about what he IS.

NORSEMAN: And he is a NWO member. Sure about that.

SHADOW: His personality changes to much for him to be just one person. I always feel that I am dealing with more than one person. He changes too suddenly.

VIOLA: He's probably CIA or FBI, a bad part of that group, or maybe an ex of those groups, working for an establishment group.

SHADOW: Really Viola. I'll have to be very careful then

VIOLA: He has the persona he wants you to believe he is, then slips into being himself :-) A Quaker who's a gun advocate, right.

SHADOW: Yeah, I know He plays games, then suddenly he's the nice little husband. Right now he's suppose to be out getting a Christmas tree.

VIOLA: He's also arrogant, he want so badly to direct, give orders, and to brag, that he can't hold back and says what I'm sure he's not supposed to say. I don't think he was ever an undercover agent, he can't keep his mouth shut.

NORSEMAN: He even send a cc to me, and he never send an email to me before.

VIOLA: He has to let you know he KNOWS how to do this or that. He's so anxious to strike terror into folks, and impress folks, that he can't hold back.

VIOLA: When you guys said you were halting the chat, the guys or guy disrupting may have gone away! So, maybe there was a reason I overslept!

NORSEMAN: So, do you think it was [the disrupter]?

VIOLA: I think it was the group [the disrupter] is part of, yes.

SHADOW: I don't know Norseman

NORSEMAN: Viola: and I think this will happen the next time too..

VIOLA: Eventually, we'll have a number of our own servers, and can host our own chats from a secure environment. We're like water, they try to block or prevent us from moving forward, take over the group, and like water flowing around their fingers, this doesn't work! Look how each of us was challenged, individually, during these past few months. For instance, [the disrupter] has a different face, or [his friend] or whomever, for each person they hoped to influence.

VIOLA: You talked about your tight, skin tight pants, and [the disrupter's friend] came onto you right away.

SHADOW: Yes, I know. :)

VIOLA: Then he started e-mailing you, saying you should challenge me on what I was saying about him.

SHADOW: Yes, that's true

VIOLA: Like, you'd do anything for a guy what was interested in your shape!

SHADOW: I knew then what was happening. Really. Damn.

VIOLA: Right, Shadow, even Rubellus was doubtful for a time, then became a believer.

SHADOW: Yeah, I meant to tell you. After I quit the meeting the first time, my phone quit working.

VIOLA: In the end, [the disrupter] and [the disrupter's friend] were to arrogant, and when their buttons got pushed, they showed their personalities. Hardly the type to join a group like ours and worry about helping others! And the persistence! That's a dead giveaway too.

SHADOW: Really, that's the truth

NORSEMAN: Yes, [the disrupter's friend] was arrogant to.

SHADOW: It is, isn't it. They got too pushy and demanding.

VIOLA: Don't they have a life!

SHADOW: I doubt it

NORSEMAN: Viola: maybe they have, but what kind of a life?

VIOLA: But a takeover of leadership requires someone like that.

SHADOW: They just like to aggravate people.

VIOLA: Unless they send in someone who can really act, and then after they take over an area, they show their true motives.

SHADOW: But remember, the older members would never let that happen. We have become as one.

VIOLA: However, I think we intuitively trigger these guys to show themselves. As at first they DID try to be someone other than whom they are.


VIOLA: Out gut instincts have been on target, 100%

SHADOW: That's right

NORSEMAN: Viola: and even if they send someone who can really act, our instincts (intuition) will tell us these guys are different then they say they are.

VIOLA: So, I think they will just set up rival organizations, and try to divert folks to them.

NORSEMAN: Viola: agree...

SHADOW: Yes. The letter I got today from someone made me think that we would be hit again. I just got that feeling.

NORSEMAN: I think they will do that,, but if they will succeed, have my doubts.

VIOLA: Right, Norseman, that's what happened. Shadow was the first to take [the disrupter], and didn't he aim for her area, the mental health area, right away!

SHADOW: Yes, he knew right how to step on my toes

VIOLA: Shadow, your timing on posting all that stuff on mental health was perfect! He said he had a double degree in psychology, and never said a word about all that. This showed he was lying about his degrees.

SHADOW: I know, he didn't even question me about not putting any medication on there. When people don't question something, its time to question them.

VIOLA: The psychology thing was just so he could have an excuse to say, to deal with "loss" folks need a payment system, mandated intimacy, assigned roles, etc. What a joke! So, his public persona didn't work as YOU exposed him beautifully, Shadow! You've got good instincts, that's for sure. You know, I bet a lot of groups would have been mincemeat by now, for sure.

SHADOW: This is true

VIOLA: Well, I'm sure when they laid the plan out, they didn't count on you putting all that stuff up there. They took a look at what had happened over the past few months, and laid out their plans. You surprised them!

SHADOW: Any other group would have been destroyed. But he hit me where it hurt and I came out fighting. Its usually hard to get me going unless you mention something like what he did.

NORSEMAN: We know how to deal with it, as we get help etc.

VIOLA: With all our newcomers, we need to welcome them and then trust our instinct over time to see who they turn out to be. I must say, the technique has worked so far! They all show their hand, after a bit.

SHADOW: Well, as soon as I read [the newcomer's] letter, I felt we might have trouble, but welcome him anyway, see what happens.

NORSEMAN: Yes, let's see what happens.

SHADOW: We can sort him out if he's up to no good.

VIOLA: My hunch is that they have decided they can't break this group up. We've kept on being productive all through this past few months of disruption.

ALBY: After a bit, give me time to organize!

VIOLA: My hunch is that they have decided to better spend their time on alternative groups, where they are there waiting for folks.

SHADOW: You know what. I've noticed that I have been more open lately. I'm not so quiet anymore.

NORSEMAN: But maybe, maybe they will give it another try, use a different method?

VIOLA: Alby, what? I missed your earlier comment due to being too gabby myself. What is it that you want to organize?

SHADOW: Yes, I think so

ALBY: Make planning, think of what things I can be useful for you. I know many persons that can be useful.

SHADOW: It will take time Alby, but you'll find something here in our group that you want to help with.

VIOLA: If they use a different method, it will be to not be so obvious. [The disrupter] came in saying 1) we needed stronger weaponry, and 2) we needed HIM.


VIOLA: So, the man was incapable of being subtle.

SHADOW: But the guy that wrote me this morning I think is coming from a different direction.

VIOLA: Alby, it takes a time for newcomers to sense who is working on what, and what their contribution could be.

ALBY: I want to help all the activities of the group, because of this is necessary time to organize.


VIOLA: For instance, if I were to first be joining this group, I would be quiet for a time, then see my niche.

NORSEMAN: Shadow: and maybe he will use a different method.

SHADOW: Same with me

VIOLA: I wouldn't want to jump in where someone else was working, but wait to see if the areas I was thinking about were being addressed. If they were NOT, then I would volunteer.

SHADOW: Alby, you can help with health.

VIOLA: I think that's normal, to be quiet at first.

SHADOW: Yes it is.

ALBY: For instance my sister is interested and always told me that she feels that here on earth she has a mission to accomplish.

SHADOW: Same as me Alby

VIOLA: Alby, so many of us in this group have the same experience.

SHADOW: I feel that I am here to save souls.

VIOLA: More than one family member, and all. A sense of mission.

ALBY: Yes a sense of mission!


VIOLA: Now, someone could come into the group pretending to be like this, like those in the group who have family members and have been contactees for a time, but they would not be able to fool us for long. It's not in the words that are said, it is in instincts that we have, our hunches, where the truth is first sensed.

SHADOW: Yes, see, on my web page I have the group listed, and Troubled Times listed and the dome homes listed, and the medical page listed and I think this is where the guy got our group from. Not sure yet

VIOLA: We trust our hunches, and they have been right 100% I must say.

SHADOW: Yes they have. I usually try to be quiet and just watch. Then something usually goes off in me.

VIOLA: Alby, many of us also have taken certain career paths knowing, subconsciously, what is coming the next couple years, etc. I myself didn't know WHY I was doing certain things, but now its all so clear.

SHADOW: I had a dream this morning. I saw myself taking out this little white disk in my ear. It was round..

ALBY: Yes, I think subconscious know many things about our destiny

NORSEMAN: And I also had a strange dream.

VIOLA: You too! Norseman wrote me about a dream, seeing a UFO mother ship or some such and going in to talk to folks.

SHADOW: Really

NORSEMAN: I didn't saw a mothership, but many UFOs. Many

VIOLA: I had a dream about seeing a mother ship too, last night, and I just don't have these dreams lately, too tired to dream!

SHADOW: Wonder what is happening. Yeah, I know what you mean

NORSEMAN: It was a strange dream.

VIOLA: Shadow, sounds like an implant. The ear is a common place for that.

SHADOW: I, when taking out the little disk knew that it was some kind of communication thing.

ALBY: I have a dream seeing a mothership, but a mysterious force put away me from the spaceship

VIOLA: Was this dream recent, Alby?

NORSEMAN: I think that they where telling us something.. Viola, Shadow

ALBY: No, 6 month ago

VIOLA: I think we've had a lot of coordination activities recently , and are recalling these in dreams, the subconscious leaking through in dreams.

ALBY: The mysterious force was my subconscious, telling me that I am not ready to encounter them.

SHADOW: Viola, I think I already have the implant because of the buzzing (electricity like).

VIOLA: I used to work at remembering all my contacts, taking time out to meditate, but I've no time for that. Lately I just trust my hunches. That works just as well.

SHADOW: Yes, that's for sure

VIOLA: I'm pretty well grounded anyway, as I did so much darn recall a couple years ago. I've got the base established.

NORSEMAN: Viola, Shadow: I think that it wasn't a coincidence that we had this dream in the same week.

SHADOW: It was like the thing was making its way out of my ear and I just pulled it out. Very strange. A little round white disk.

VIOLA: Shadow, when my implant is buzzed to locate me, it feels like I had a zap in the head.

SHADOW: Very strange

VIOLA: At times I lose my balance for a split second.

SHADOW: Yes, that's it Viola. That's what I get.

ALBY: Zap in the middle of the head? Viola?

SHADOW: Electricity like

VIOLA: I used to think I had epilepsy, but now I understand that they are just activating the implant to locate me for a contact. I've discovered, after the zap, I have a new memory about a visit in a moment.

SHADOW: Sometimes it gets so loud that I cover my ears. It actually hurts, it's so strong.

VIOLA: Zap is how I describe it, as though electricity were passed through, for just a second.

SHADOW: Yes, that's it. Boy do I get them.

VIOLA: It's quite strong, and can make me lose my balance but I cover this up by changing position if I'm standing and talking to folks. I get about 3 a week if not more. I have at times been talking to a group, standing up, and gotten zapped.

SHADOW: Yes, it can make you lose balance. This has happened to me.

NORSEMAN: I think I have an implant to, not sure about it.

VIOLA: I pretend that I stepped back funny on one foot and turned my ankle.

SHADOW: I know. You have to make excuses up. I do all the time. Just say an earache occurred suddenly and they believe me. Never question me.

VIOLA: Fortunately, I have a muscular weakness from French Polio, and have this obvious scar in my throat where they put the air way, so I have an excuse for losing my balance :-)

SHADOW: I never get earaches though. I think we all come up with excuses just to cover ourselves. Its the norm.

VIOLA: My ears drain a lot, due to the irritation. By drain I mean produce a lot of ear wax that is liquid, wants to go somewhere.

SHADOW: Yes, mine do too, a lot.

VIOLA: And this all has only been during the last 15 years or so, more like 10 years.

SHADOW: And itch. Lord have mercy the itching

VIOLA: I just accept this as normal, a part of what must happen during this time.

SHADOW: Mine (the draining) has been since I joined this group.

VIOLA: Missing time, etc., I just say, "oh, that again".

NORSEMAN: I don't have the problems if I am right, I had an ear infection last year but I think that was due to the dirt in the seawater.

ALBY: Help me, I do many dreams where strange vibration strikes me in the head and then the entire body, do you know what are? Last week again it occurred.

VIOLA: We get stuck in rush hour traffic and think this normal.

SHADOW: Yes, the missing time I'm use to. Don't even question it anymore

VIOLA: Well, as a contactee, I think all this other stuff, like getting zapped, is normal :-).

SHADOW: Yes it is.

VIOLA: Itching, oh yeah. I've become expert on scratching so that no one can notice what I'm doing.

SHADOW: I use to get a jolt of electricity running through my body at night

VIOLA: Not socially acceptable to dig around in your itchy ear all day :-).

SHADOW: Viola, yes, that's true.

NORSEMAN: It became normal for us. Maybe that's the reason I don't noticed it that much.

SHADOW: I know

ALBY: What are these vibration?

SHADOW: I think preparing you Alby. Mine started out like that

VIOLA: Alby, you're recalling what happens when you have an implant, almost always in the head area, and the implant is activated so they can locate you for contact.

ALBY: Last week I make resistance and the energy go around my head not enter in it, but then the vibrations wins me. Too strong to make resistance.

SHADOW: I also had where my brain would feel as though it were fluttering. Something would enter at my hairline on my forehead and then ruffle through my brain.

VIOLA: I don't think the implant is given electricity, but causes the body to produce this somehow.

ALBY: I don't remember contact,

SHADOW: Yes. You probably won't for some time.

VIOLA: I'm usually concerned with not falling down, as I have muscle weakness, so when I get zapped my first thought is, don't fall down!

NORSEMAN: Yes, I read such a thing somewhere about a contact, or Whitley said it..

VIOLA: So, side symptoms like a ruffling don't get noticed.

SHADOW: Right, but its scary. Really. You read this.

ALBY: Only one time, I remember two entity near the bed, one of this put a finger versus my head and I started to lift, then I don't remember where I was gone.

VIOLA: Alby, you strike me as a contactee and have all along, genuine for sure.

ALBY: Perhaps,

SHADOW: I hate that ruffling effect. It scares the hell out of me.

NORSEMAN: Ruffling?

VIOLA: I've learned to just trust and not worry so we can get on with all the work. etc.

ALBY: I haven't fear, these effects (vibration, etc..) started many years ago.

SHADOW: Yeah, but it almost feels like I'm going to lose my mind for a second.

VIOLA: Alby, most recall is spotty like that, one remembers a dramatic moment only, at first.

ALBY: I call them, mental intrusions.

SHADOW: Yes, across the top of the brain.

VIOLA: Then, as you get curious, you start to dig around and the rest comes up, then you piece the pieces together, like a puzzle, and finally get the whole picture.

ALBY: Yeah! Viola, you are right. The whole picture is interesting.

SHADOW: The first ruffling came at my husbands funeral. The others came later.

VIOLA: After all, we go to the dentist and get unpleasant things done, so teeth can be better. Implants and visitations are much less bothersome than that!

VIOLA: It's so wonderful having been able to chat and not have my computer crash 100 times for dozens of different reasons.

SHADOW: I know it

ALBY: It's frustrating

NORSEMAN: Viola: Yes, it is... :)

VIOLA: I suspected that they would leave me alone this time, so it would not look too obvious, what they did last week.


VIOLA: I think that most of our active members are really contactees, whether they know it or not.

ALBY: Viola? How many time they come to visit you in a week?

SHADOW: But your idea of switching the time at the last minute sounds good. Yes, I think they are too. They will improve in time.

VIOLA: We can use these techniques if they become necessary, but if we do that, many members who only thought about it would join and find us gone!


VIOLA: So, only if we are driven to it, but I think there are a number of things that could be done, other than that. As they say, necessity is the mother of invention.


VIOLA: I get daily visits during this past couple years. Prior to that, maybe every 3 months at least. When there is activity going on, like there has been, then coordination gets intense.

ALBY: Also I, normally I have recorded a strange experience one per month. Last week the last.

VIOLA: It's not hard to arrange a visit for them, so they do so quickly as needed.

NORSEMAN: I think I get daily visits too, (last year a lot,)

SHADOW: Yes, if I cannot focus, I have real trouble with visitations. I can't let my mind be preoccupied.

VIOLA: The contactees are taken from the shower, nude and wet, another from their bed, half asleep and in undies only, and the aliens don't care.

SHADOW: That's right

ALBY: Visit are consciously for you?

VIOLA: They don't worry about the small stuff, just the important topic to be discussed :-)

SHADOW: Wherever

ALBY: Or in the dream?

VIOLA: Alby, if you get active in TT as you have been starting too, expect a lot of visits for coordination.

SHADOW: Yes they will increase.

NORSEMAN: Yes, your right.

VIOLA: Norseman, stuff has been popping with you the last few months.

NORSEMAN: They will increase, sure about that.

VIOLA: Especially when what you are doing is crucial, important for an activity to occur at all.

NORSEMAN: Viola: what do you mean?

VIOLA: Then you're picked up for all related meetings.

SHADOW: Most of the time, not in a dream.

VIOLA: Alby, none of us has conscious visits, but many have done so much recall that a good base has been formed in the conscious. When I sense that another visit has taken place, I only need a little recall to put the pieces together.

SHADOW: I remember very little, but I know something has occurred.

VIOLA: I quickly understand what has occurred, and then only need to dig out certain details, then follow my hunches.

NORSEMAN: Viola: I think you're right, but what do you mean with popping with you?

ALBY: I think that conscious visits are difficult to do, because we have to fight with our mind to accept them. Face to face is difficult.

VIOLA: For instance, if I know I've been meeting a couple members on earthworms, and I sense a meeting has just taken place. If I see in my recall that I was talking to one of these members, and pick up a key phrase about this or that, then I know what the meeting was about.

SHADOW: I remember a big white room. I was lying on a table, my head going into a tunnel. Like a brain scan. A doctor standing there with a face mask on. Never really had this happen in real life, but remember it so well.

VIOLA: Then I listen to my hunches about it, as this is a sure shortcut to understanding.


VIOLA: Shadow, maybe MJ12 curious about your implant.

ALBY: The implant is visible on x-ray sheet?

SHADOW: Yes Viola. This was sometime back.

VIOLA: Alby, most are NOT visible, as they are made from organic material. Nevertheless, MJ12 has a lot of curious folks. Maybe that wasn't it at all! Thank you all for persevering and coming back on! We covered a lot of subjects, and will have a good log to show for it this month. This was important, to have a good log, to show those assholes that they can't disrupt us! We did it!