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icon 10-Nov-96

Note: it is a general Troubled Times policy to change the names of IRC participants to screen names and remove personal discussions that occurred during the chat in the interests of privacy.

NORSEMAN: I found a faq about permaculture.

VIOLA: Well now we have 4 and can talk about permaculture. My impression is that its the bio cycle or some such, right?

SHADOW: Yes, its the bio cycle

NORSEMAN: In the faq they say: "Permaculture is about designing ecological human habitats and food productions systems" and a bit more.

ATOM: Permaculture: I saw a drawing, and it's simply the whole circle under your control. Now we don't see it all, we buy something and send trash away. But permaculture is all with you, your trash is an input somewhere else until gets back to your mouth and your trash.

VIOLA: Compost piles are something that became popular a couple decades ago here in the USA. Everyone used to bag their raked leaves and pruned branches, send them to the dump

VIOLA: Then they began to put them in a pile and make "soil" out of them

ATOM: Yes, that compost is popular here too.

VIOLA: The "soil" takes a long time to develop, but if just left naturally, that's what happens. I wonder if there are techniques to speed the process? Rubellus puts earthworms into garbage, I believe, and that's one thing that speeds the process.

NORSEMAN: Viola: speed of the process?

ATOM: It speeds up if more heat, but slows down at cold, I think.

VIOLA: In nature, things rot, bacteria, etc., do their thing.

NORSEMAN: Viola: that's one thing that speeds up the process.

VIOLA: Into coffins and the like, with dead people, they put lime to make it happen faster, do they not?

VIOLA: Heat and cold for sure.

ATOM: Never heard about that lime?

VIOLA: Does anyone know why they put lime into coffins, with dead folks?


VIOLA: Well, I think it maybe in the movies that I saw that, that someone buried a body out in the woods, and wanted it to rot fast so it wouldn't be discovered, etc. I know that many times soil does not grow things well if too acid, that plants need a certain alkaline pH level, etc.

ATOM: Yes, lime. It slows the process. I've heard that some farmers put eggs into lime and they "survive" for years, but I don't know why so.

VIOLA: Oh! So I got it backwards, then, the lime stops the process, or slows it. In farming, there are certain crops that work with each other to help the other grow.

ATOM: Slows it, but quite much. I don't think anything can really stop it.

NORSEMAN: I think because lime contains vitamin C, and that's an antioxidant.

VIOLA: For instance, they plant alfalfa, I believe, to put nitrogen back into the soil, as it has root nodules that do that. Then they plant the other crop that is looking for the nitrogen.

VIOLA: Lime contains Vitamin C? I'm learning stuff here!

ATOM: Vitamin C, anti-oxidation, then reversed - put oxygen in and it will go faster!

NORSEMAN: Atom: you are right.

VIOLA: In the article on chickens in the greenhouse, they said that the ammonia in chicken droppings could be turned into nitrogen by combining it with something, I don't remember what at present. Running it up through the soil, and this happened naturally! Now, the small groups in the Aftertime will need to recycle everything. We tell them to run their sewage effluent into fish ponds, or at least grow algae to feed the fish, etc.

ATOM: So, if bacteria makes "soil" out of compost, to step it up, we should give them better surroundings, and that's more oxygen (air), wet.

VIOLA: Yes, we need to establish the ideal surroundings for making soil out of garbage and human poop, shit. In the orient, they sometimes take their shit out into the fields, use it as fertilizer.

NORSEMAN: Yes, but we should know which garbage is useful for making soil.

VIOLA: However, then certain human diseases can cycle round, and come back to infect folks via the food grown.

NORSEMAN: organic stuff.

ATOM: Depends on the disease

VIOLA: So, it's not a simple process, needs to be done in a way that the nutrients come through, but the darn bacteria that cause disease stay back!

ATOM: If disease that spreads through air, than it's there anyway. If one by food, than you can cook, and it helps.

VIOLA: Maybe if the food is cooked well, there is no problem. I know that cooking food gets rid of parasites like round worms or other tiny parasites that can infect folks, I'm thinking of trichinosis which lives in pork and gets into human muscles, etc.

VIOLA: Maybe the soil that comes from human shit can be placed deep, rather than on top of the soil. I'm not sure if the disease comes from eating the food so much as walking about barefooted in the fields, which they do, in the rice paddies, etc.

NORSEMAN: We should think about hygiene too.

ATOM: I think permaculture is not so direct as putting shit on a field and eat what grows.

VIOLA: OK, for Aftertime groups, then, they should first feed garbage scraps to their rabbits or chickens, right?

ATOM: Could be

NORSEMAN: Atom: permaculture is more.

VIOLA: What is your concept of permaculture? Then whatever the rabbits and chickens don't eat, into the compost pile, but first chop it up into little pieces, right?

ATOM: Like: you drop your shit and something grows. You give that to your chicken. Chicken nest the egg. You eat the egg.

VIOLA: What's the essence of permaculture. To be honest, I didn't have time to look it up. So its the cycle, the complete cycle.

NORSEMAN: A complete cycle. Yes I think so.

ATOM: Viola: I also didn't have time, just saw a picture of a house, where all was in a circle, but couldn't find the book now.

VIOLA: I'm sure, since using one's shit to fertilize has been around a long time, that there must be more to it, how to enhance, speed it up, make it optimal , etc. Mets is doing some of those recycling circles, in various areas. I thought that was excellent! Nothing in the chicken went to waste!

ATOM: Just BTW, you can use other things instead of shit - leaves, crops parts that you don't eat etc.


VIOLA: Maybe permaculture is where nothing goes to waste, too, so that if one was in a space ship, for a zillion years, there would still be the same nutrients coming round and round year after year.

ATOM: Dehydrated shit can be used for fire, too, you know? Many in deserts do so.

VIOLA: So much of human farming practices assume that one can consume nature, and just move on. For instance, soil erosion, farming in a way that ruins the topsoil steadily.

ATOM: "Modern" world, heh.

VIOLA: This was a big thing here in the US, created the dust bowl, for instance, where the top soil blew off into the wind! So maybe permaculture is farming in a way that soil does not wash away, too, as well as putting back the fertilizer from shit and urine. Urine has a lot of ammonia, and that article in the chicken section mentioned that chicken droppings have ammonia and if that is run up through the soil, it combines with stuff to make nitrogen, one of the big fertilizers.

SHADOW: Yes, I have heard a bit about that. I also heard that once the land had been used, it is wise to swap different crops. Plant one thing one time, another the next

VIOLA: Right! Cycle crops, one adds nitrogen, the other takes it out.

SHADOW: Also, when I had a farm, what we did was use the chicken crap one year, then horse crap the next

VIOLA: Perhaps in TT we need to just list, in a table perhaps, the key things to do for permaculture to be in place.

NORSEMAN: Viola: this is what I read in the faq: Permaculture: the use of ecology as the basis for designing integrated systems of food production, housing, appropriate technology, and community development. Permaculture is built upon an ethnic of caring for the earth and interacting with the environment in mutually beneficial ways..

SHADOW: We had some very rich soil from all of that

VIOLA: I don't know what those key things are. Rubellus was going to write something up, but he gets so damn busy. Ah, so, permaculture is a broad concept!

SHADOW: Yes it is, very broad

VIOLA: In the Aftertime, permaculture should be looked at as within a small group, a household, perhaps, how to help them establish this.


VIOLA: You know, so many folks think of many things being done by their government and don't think they must be responsible for it. Now, during the Aftertime, they must be the ones to worry about and do it!

SHADOW: I thought about what Cosmic had said, about the plants covering the ground and they protected the ground in this way

VIOLA: So, we need a short list, for our own TT table, that says what permaculture is, some key suggestions.



VIOLA: Plants to prevent erosion is a good idea, definitely!

ATOM: Just looked at Grolier, and no entries on permaculture, what an encyclopedia.

NORSEMAN: Viola: we could point to the faq. that I found.

SHADOW: I had to look the word up just to find out what it meant. Many people had never heard this word. Yes

VIOLA: My husband says the American Indians had a technique to not turn the soil over, to not create erosion, but to just put the corn kernel in and let it grow. This way the soil did not erode.

SHADOW: The only way I found out about it is through the Internet. Just looking it up

NORSEMAN: Atom: permaculture has to do with agriculture.

VIOLA: Plus, they put a fish in the bottom of the hold where they put the corn kernels into, and this fertilized the corn. I guess they did this during Times when they had tons of fish, or it doesn't seem very efficient to me. Fish is more important to eat than corn, my thoughts.

SHADOW: You know, one year there, my husband was out of town and I knew we needed the garden, so I lazily just threw the seeds out there on top of the ground and with the rain, it buried them and they grew. Boy what a garden

NORSEMAN: Yes, more important. But corn is important too.

VIOLA: Norseman, I've got that web site and will include it!

SHADOW: Yes, I have used fish

SHADOW: But horse crap and chicken crap I think is the best from what I have seen

VIOLA: Shadow, what was different? Why did they grow well? I know that seeds are usually planted deep, but nature just lands them on top of the soil, that's nature's way.

ATOM: I checked agriculture and there's article "agriculture and the food supply".

SHADOW: I don't know. It seemed as though the plants were stronger and healthier for some reason. My husband couldn't believe the garden that year

NORSEMAN: Shadow: and cow crap as horse crap could contain tetanus bacteria..

VIOLA: Atom, a good article for the TT topic on permaculture? Can you mail it to me or if already electronic, send it?

SHADOW: Plus, and it may sound silly, but I had put a crystal at four corners of the garden

VIOLA: Shadow, I have a similar story. My father planted a flower from Hawaii, in Wisconsin, and fertilized it and fussed over it like crazy.

SHADOW: How did it grow

VIOLA: It never bloomed, in 20 years, but then he died and my mother failed to fertilize it. A year after he died it started blooming and has never stopped! He was fertilizing it too much!

SHADOW: Yes, too much fertilization will burn it up, burn the roots

VIOLA: Cow/Horse crap, we probably won't have either in the Aftertime. Chickens and rabbits, yes.

NORSEMAN: Shadow: a crystal? Why?

VIOLA: Crystal?

SHADOW: I had heard that using crystals generated some sort of energy. I tried it just to see. I don't really know if they worked, or if just throwing the seeds out like I did, did it, but something did it

NORSEMAN: Viola: and what about pigeons?

SHADOW: This was really strange

VIOLA: So, if we tell folks simple, or maybe work up a simple graphic - circular cycle - about permaculture, then we should be specific as hell so that folks never doing this before can get the picture.


ATOM: Viola: just posted the article...

NORSEMAN: Viola: crap from pigeons?

VIOLA: Do people grow pigeons to eat? I guess they maybe do. I thought folks just grew them as carrier pigeons or some such.

VIOLA: Thanks, Atom!

NORSEMAN: Viola: not to eat, but maybe the crap? Can this be used?

VIOLA: Oh, their dropping would be fertilizer, but better to feed the garbage scraps to some animal that one can eat, right? Do people eat pigeons? They are so tiny, not much meat.

SHADOW: I imagine they could be used for stews and such, flavoring

NORSEMAN: Viola: okay, you are right. :-)

VIOLA: OK, so feeding scraps to animals and making fertilizer out of shit of many kinds, and using urine of many kinds to create nitrogen, that's a start. What else?

ATOM: Viola: another article coming - agricultural ecology. Didn't read, but maybe something useful. Anybody gets this.

VIOLA: Breath, as CO2 pushes plants to grow. I know that article I posted in the Chicken section talked about that.

SHADOW: That could very well be

VIOLA: They had the chickens in an indoor garden area, where the chicken breath CO2 recycled into the garden and made the plants grow. So, indoor gardening where human and chicken and rabbit (or pigeon) breath is kept close for the plants - that would help.

NORSEMAN: CO2, is important.

VIOLA: This also recycles heat, if one is looking for that. In the middle ages, and even somewhat in pioneer times here in the US, folks used the heat from their herds to keep themselves warm.

SHADOW: That's interesting

VIOLA: The herds were housed in a lean to next to the house, but there was a passageway to the house and the hot air from their bodies moved into the house. Probably pretty stinky all around!

SHADOW: Yeah, but sometimes you have to deal with the smell if you don't want to freeze to death

NORSEMAN: Viola: but it helped to stay warm.

ATOM: Norseman: it's OK, just my line gets $%&$%&$ from Time to Time.

VIOLA: Water can be recycled too. For instance, distill water for drinking and cooking. When one washes the dishes, pour the water into the gardens as the soap in essence makes a fertilizer, and the water also does not go to waste. Then, when one creates urine, also use that for the gardens in such a way that it does not burn the plants.

SHADOW: Yes, I use to use the bathwater and such for plants and all

VIOLA: I guess one could write an article about permaculture if one just thinks of what we consider garbage, and thinks how to use that so its not a throw-away.

SHADOW: I use to use the rain water for showers and such

VIOLA: Also, think of what nutrients are hard to come by, and how to create them. For TT, I think we need to have a short list of suggestions that are appropriate for small groups, living in the Aftertime. We need someone to study the permaculture sites and come up with that short list. I'll post that in the job postings, for sure. Chicken egg shells are another thing!

SHADOW: Really?

VIOLA: We consider them garbage, but they are full of calcium!

SHADOW: Never knew that

NORSEMAN: Viola: yes, as it's an important concept.

ATOM: Yes, egg shells. My grandma dropped them into water, and used that water for plants.

VIOLA: If one crushes them and adds to the compost, then with certain other things added the calcium comes available to the plants. Broccoli and kale and such pull up the calcium. I know that there are folks that feed kale and greens to chickens, to allow them to make strong egg shells.

SHADOW: Yes, this I knew, we did it

VIOLA: Oh, Atom, what a wonderful suggestion! I'm going to make an initial permaculture suggestion list from this chat!

VIOLA: Bones, how do folks use bones?

NORSEMAN: Viola; don't know about that, which use they have.

ATOM: Bones are cooked in a broth, instead of meat, sometimes. Many claim it's better.

VIOLA: How can bones from rabbits or chickens or even humans be recycles into calcium and other minerals that plants need?

SHADOW: Don't know about bones

VIOLA: Is there something that makes bones break down quickly?

SHADOW: I've never known bones to breakdown quickly

VIOLA: Would that lime trick, to add lime and then stop so the decomposing can start, would that work on bones?

CARRIE: I think if bones are grounded into a meal, then sprinkled on food or cultivated in soil

SHADOW: Someone can try that with maybe chicken bones at home

VIOLA: Ground up, for sure. Maybe a meat grinder? Well, bones are damn tough, are intended to be tough and are!

VIOLA: Yes! Cooked in soup! And then they become soft!

CARRIE: The trick is to preserve the calcium. Boiling will change the CA composition, I think.

SHADOW: I think so too

CARRIE: If bones are dried, then they are easier to break. The tougher the bone, the more calcium it has.

VIOLA: There is a process by which bones are softened. I know that in the Orient they add bones to preserved food, and they're as soft and chewy as anything.

VIOLA: Don't know the process though!

SHADOW: May have to look that up

VIOLA: For instance, horse hooves are turned into glue. What is that process I wonder?

CARRIE: But the calcium (CA+) is probably not preserved.

SHADOW: Don't know

VIOLA: Mets, we're thinking of all ways to totally recycle rabbits, chickens, shit and urine, and plant leftovers.

SHADOW: Has anyone totally figured out how to store seeds safely

VIOLA: Feed the garbage to the rabbits and chickens, put the shit and trash into a compost pile and maybe add worms to that, and now we're onto bones.

METS: Viola: I'll be working on that :)

ATOM: Viola: not soft bones, just for taste, I think.

CARRIE: Grind everything up and use for fertilizer! The resulting plants will be wonderfully rich in nutrients

METS: Shit/waste is mainly used for fertilizer, and plant scraps could be used for animal feed

VIOLA: Regarding some of the problems we've been having with disruptions on the list serve, I was thinking about what to say in the intro letter to TT new members. I've got an idea.


NORSEMAN: Coffee filter sacks (where the coffee stays) can be used to make the structure of the ground better and it's good for the ground and it keeps the cats away.

VIOLA: Maybe tell them that we've had trouble with disruptive folks, and suggest if one of them personally contacts them, that they should post the e-mail on the TT list serve!

NORSEMAN: Hope I said it right as my English isn't that good...


VIOLA: That would reveal any behind-the-scenes contacting of our members for sure!

CARRIE: Agreed Viola!

VIOLA: You know, there's no reason for newcomers who just lurk to be contacted out of the blue, especially if they've never posted!

SHADOW: That's right

CARRIE: That would be a violation of their privacy!

VIOLA: It can only be one reason, to try to poison their thoughts, or to try to lure them away to another group, or some such.,

SHADOW: Yes, that's right

ATOM: Viola: it won't. If somebody comes in for contacting members, he'd do this, in spite of a rule of posting to TT.

VIOLA: Especially as we had that suspicious offer from the last disinfo specialist who wanted to be a greeter, my thoughts are that we should warm folks about this. By saying, post any unsolicited e-mail onto the list, this will stop!

NORSEMAN: Yes, we should warn folks about this, especially as the list grew month by month.

NORSEMAN: Viola: agree


METS: Should we some type of waiting period for lurking?

SHADOW: Boy, he just wanted to take over didn't he

VIOLA: Norseman, what I'm going to suggest to folks is that if they, the newcomer, gets unsolicited e-mail based on their just joining, that if the e-mail does not come from TT, then they should post it onto the TT list serve.

SHADOW: Remember too, he mentioned about the alien law, as though to make us all nervous, like we were going to be arrested at any minute.

CARRIE: That is a good idea, Mets.

SHADOW: I think we will all be contacted now by government agents, just a thought

NORSEMAN: If we are to much into the scientific details etc. we will forget what's really important.. and that's one thing that he was trying to do.

VIOLA: Shadow and Carrie and I found that by my posting his private e-mail to us onto the list serve, that this stopped a lot of his games.

ATOM: Viola: that's good. That will warn them!


CARRIE: We have to remember that a lot of scientific details will not apply after the PS

SHADOW: That's right

VIOLA: Yes, he or another member will contact each and every one, and try to poison or threaten them.

CARRIE: We need to concentrate on the very basics

VIOLA: He was trying to contact each to see where the weak point was, and each weak point was going to get hit, a lot!

CARRIE: You are right, Viola

ATOM: Viola: if we can correct the mailing list to ban people trying to get list of members, then he can't contact them!

SHADOW: Yes, but one thing, we are probably going to be visited by some sort of government agents

NORSEMAN: He didn't contact me as yet.

ATOM: Norse: not me either


VIOLA: Norseman, yes! He was trying to get us into details so the overall picture would be lost. I also trashed his detail postings. This is not our mission!


METS: Viola: that's a problem

CARRIE: Way to go! He contacted the women first

VIOLA: Atom, can this be done? Today its so easy, just who TT-list and you get the list!

CARRIE: I guess he figured that being women, we were weak

ATOM: I think we should start to ignore him.

VIOLA: Women usually reveal more about themselves.

ATOM: Viola: it should be, Art-Bell doesn't respond to WHO, and many other too.

VIOLA: They talk, open up, and he was trying to start hacking at the weaker posters, etc.

SHADOW: Yes but we are far from weak as he found out

METS: Is there a way to kick/ban from the list?

CARRIE: That is for sure, Shadow.

VIOLA: Atom, I've made a note of it! I'll ask Lazarus.

SHADOW: We are bad asses. Excuse the language

ATOM: Kick/ban: unsubscribe him, but he can get back.

VIOLA: Mets. yes, but we should remember, if they get banned, they just come back as another name!

SHADOW: Yes, like using another name

NORSEMAN: Atom: it's an idea

CARRIE: Yes Shadow, we are not being good <g>

ATOM: I think if we ignore him. I'll put him on a twit list here, goes directly to Deleted items.

SHADOW: Are we ever

CARRIE: But we will recognize his essence

VIOLA: They may be trying to force us to become a closed list, where only certain folks can get on.

SHADOW: Yes we will cause he'll slip up

VIOLA: Long-Bow had that at first, but it has its own problems!

NORSEMAN: Atom: I had some problems with a guy some months ago on IRC, so I put him on my ignore list..

NORSEMAN: Viola: they will not succeed.

METS: He sound like a republican! :)

NORSEMAN: Atom: whatever he say I don't see it.

VIOLA: If folks can just come in and lurk, then we get a lot more, they aren't shy.

METS: Just joking

CARRIE: A very right-wing republican at that!

VIOLA: Anyway, having a chat with a newcomer is no guarantee.

CARRIE: Twit list - I like that

ATOM: Perhaps this twit list could be done on list serve... He gets it back, we don't.

VIOLA: Some of our best folks probably looked a bit flaky at first.

NORSEMAN: people should know that this things can happen, disruption.

VIOLA: What I'm thinking is that newcomers read these logs, and will by this be aware of his problem we are having! Mets: He sounded like a CIA/FBI agent to me! Republican for sure! What an ass!

CARRIE: I think those who really want to contribute won't be fooled. After all, they have been "guided" to TT in one way or another

VIOLA: Carrie: No doubt. That's a conclusion I think they are coming to.

METS: Norseman: I agree

VIOLA: Anyway, my thoughts are that they feel they can't control or disrupt the group, so they will move to another plan

VIOLA: I think they will start a competing group, will have money, and will try to get folks to join that group instead.

CARRIE: The trick is to keep our info channels clean as there are agents like him who will post disinfo that may not be recognized as disinfo

VIOLA: When you think about it, that has already been tried, within our group. Remember the attempt to get us to join with the the Pole Shift web site? That site has a personal capsule that only a few could afford to buy, as the big suggestion on how to survive.

METS: Almost jumped after reading those boot camp/military, religion thing

VIOLA: Then, of course, nothing about how to live afterwards :-).

NORSEMAN: Carrie: agree with you..

VIOLA: Carrie: disinfo is the big danger. When Atom did that graph on the slowing rotation, it showed suddenly that the data was skewed!

CARRIE: That is where our telepathy and Zeta contact comes in handy

VIOLA: He on the other hand reported on his posting only that 1982-87 showed a slowdown. Then 87 to 95 it sped back up!

NORSEMAN: Carrie: agree with you.

VIOLA: So, if Atom hadn't done that graph, we would have been sucked in and posted data that countered our premise. I don't think that data is accurate anyway, look who puts it out! The Navy! They control the clock, too. I was really proud that so many of us had an instinct about him. We reacted to him as the person he was, even before he had revealed himself. Shadow, you defended your mental health area like crazy, and that was an area he was targeting. We all had to force folks into the NWO rules as it was supposed to be a mental health necessity! My thoughts are that they will form a new group, a competing group, and maybe spread untruth about us around on the usenets. The way to counter that is to keep an eye out, and when disinfo gets posted on the usenets, then counter that.

NORSEMAN: NWO rules, they "suck" ..

VIOLA: or, better yet, post now and then on the Usenets ourselves!

ATOM: Viola: so what, those self thinking will come and see, those who rely on govm't, that's their problem.

NORSEMAN: I know there is a lot of disinfo, more disinfo then real info

VIOLA: ZT used to get a lot of attacks, but they stopped as none of them worked. Eventually, we'll get our peace here too.

CARRIE: So, we just let them. If we spend our Time and energy working, instead of fighting, then they will end up fighting themselves! After all, it takes two to compete!

ATOM: Yes, a short article, what we did last month for example, every once in awhile.

CARRIE: So we offer no competition - we just keep on working and ignore the other groups.

VIOLA: Atom, you're right, and I'm not worried. However, disinfo should always be countered, at least so both statements pop up in the search engines at the same Time. If we do this, then disinfo won't work for them and they'll stop it.

VIOLA: So, now and then we need to go to the search engines and see what comes up if TT is put in.

ATOM: Viola: agree.

METS: Carrie: agree, as long as the other group leave us alone

NORSEMAN: Viola: I will do that so now and then

CARRIE: If they pick on us, we give them the cold shoulder. True STO folks will know them for who they are.

VIOLA: Carrie: I now that the important folks we are attracting have good hunches and good instincts. I'm not worried about losing them, just about moving this whole attack thing along so it doesn't waste our time.

CARRIE: Viola: I agree

NORSEMAN: Viola: and I know at about the instincts etc.. :)

METS: Viola: right

VIOLA: If they conclude that they can't get rid of us, control us, disband or distract us, then they move to the ultimate plan - an alternative competitive site and group!

ATOM: Viola: me too

VIOLA: It will have money, will attract those empty in the head, and who cares about that!


ATOM: And when they have a group, they won't have to put anything on it, anyway.

VIOLA: But the folks we want to attract will still find us as they are being guided to us. I think they are worries about how to control the mass of the populace anyway.

NORSEMAN: Viola: right

VIOLA: You know, when he first started posting about coal, using coal, I kept thinking they wanted people on top of a coal seam so they could use them as slaves, going into the mines! That thought came into my mind!

CARRIE: Controlling the masses is stupid! What masses? Oh well, it keeps them busy and away from us!

VIOLA: I'll bet they put their prototype site on top of a coal mine! Ha!

ATOM: And his idea about collecting coins... ROTFL.

VIOLA: This about what they have today, the NWO crowd. Folks are forced to buy certain products, pay taxes, etc. In an loose manner of speaking, its slavery, indentured, etc. I have a question. What was the purpose about "buying silver", etc. What does everyone think?

METS: Viola: very true

NORSEMAN: Viola: it has no purpose in the Aftertime.

CARRIE: Slavery, that is what the NWO wants. They want some folks to survive to become slaves to the "saved" rich and powerful

ATOM: Buying silver: I don't know why should we. A tent and a knife are better investment.

ATOM: And ideas about names, flags, etc. huh

NORSEMAN: Atom: I totally agree with you Atom.

VIOLA: The banking industry will be in turmoil soon, as folks realize that their real estate, etc., will have no value.

CARRIE: About coins? Like the saying "You can't take it with you"

ATOM: Oh my govm't'... I forgot to go to elections today <grin>.

VIOLA: I think he wanted us to speak the party line, so to speak, say what they want the populace to think - trust your banks, follow what the govm't says, do religious rituals, etc.

CARRIE: Viola: that is why governments all over the world are suppressing knowledge about the PS

VIOLA: I think they wanted us to say, paper money won't be any good, but buy silver!

METS: Atom: yeah, what's with the name stuff?

VIOLA: He wanted to get us to tout their agenda, but we refused.

CARRIE: Shame on you Atom!

VIOLA: Mets: I don't know, but I think the fact that we are so loose about "registering" groups makes them nervous.

CARRIE: Just a hunch, an instinct

VIOLA: They are control freaks, and want to know where everyone is, so they can enslave them, in essence.

NORSEMAN: And one thing that we don't need are control freaks.

VIOLA: Now, today, everyone has a SSN, social security number, and they know where everyone is.

ATOM: Mets: he wanted that groups have names, flags, etc. Like armies, I guess.

VIOLA: But, in the future, the Aftertime, unless they have a registry of groups, know where they are located, etc., they can't insist on taxes being paid, etc. Payment systems, he was insisting on payment systems, too. The controlling elite only live on top of others because they can skim money off of others.

NORSEMAN: Atom: what I think, I think that if we agreed with him, and we had taken the advice that groups need a name they will be easier to find by the NWO, that's why he did it?

ATOM: Yes, they think folks will register with them in the Aftertime. Never.

VIOLA: Lawyers, bankers, govm't folks, they all are parasites, in a manner of speaking.

METS: Atom: that's the last thing we would want to do

VIOLA: These are the ones that don't want the payment system and all to go away, as then they'd have to farm and grunt work like the rest of us!

ATOM: Viola: one way or another, they'll do that - denial.

VIOLA: So I think they know that the core group can't be swayed, but they will try to keep us from growing by contacting newcomers. This was his final thought, the "greeters" group. I was just horrified!

CARRIE: Well, his backers won't be happy!

ATOM: Viola: if Lazarus makes it that who TT-list doesn't work, he shouldn't post those "Welcome xxx to TT", so they don't know, until a newcomer gets settled in.

VIOLA: Re permaculture, I'm going to make up a list of suggestions based on this chat, and use that as the start of a page in the Permaculture section. Then we can add to it. Maybe by posting that list on the list server, there will be discussion from others and the list will grow. I know that Rubellus has a lot of thoughts on the subject.

CARRIE: I wonder where he is.

NORSEMAN: Viola: right.

VIOLA: Atom: I'm going to write Lazarus about both those things

METS: Carrie: me too

ATOM: Yes, so we can slowly finish for today. Did permaculture and "security" stuff quite a lot.

NORSEMAN: Yes, the same for me a time problem I guess.

NORSEMAN: Rubellus has to stay up late

ATOM: Yes, also a phone problem, my neighbor who uses the same line and cannot call now so is probably depressed.

VIOLA: Rubellus, poor guy, has such a busy life! Maybe he got the bugaboo on the IRC lines this Time. I mean to tell you, last month, I had a zillion problems and they all lifted at 10:00 like someone just quit trying to make it impossible for me. I know we get played with. For one thing, we announce the time, etc. You know, most of these silly techniques probably work on groups, but not on this group. We're too tough. We persist.

ATOM: We should not announce the time, just a NOT ON THE LIST SERV message.

VIOLA: I was thinking about the workload, as we get larger. For one thing, I noticed how long the e-mail list is.

CARRIE: We have no choice!

NORSEMAN: Viola: agree with you...

VIOLA: However, as we get up into the hundreds, maybe the e-mail won't get that much larger, as I think most folks are shy to post.

CARRIE: So many people's lives will depend on the information in this group

NORSEMAN: Viola: sometimes I receive 44 messages or more a day.

VIOLA: Besides, if one answers a subject, and the others agree with the answer, they don't have to post, just nod their head to themselves, etc. Atom, but if we do that, then how will those who want to join the chat know? We have a regular time. I think we must stay the same.

NORSEMAN: Viola: Yes, we must stay the same.

ATOM: Viola: you're right.

VIOLA: Other than keeping social chatter off the list serve, and maybe limiting our responses, there is nothing we can do!

NORSEMAN: Viola: agree with you. BTW next week socializing chat.

ATOM: Viola: yes, limit the posts, something like art-bell, 3 in a day or such. And than you answer to all in one message. Less overhead.

VIOLA: There is another way we could maybe reduce the e-mail. Maybe we could arrange a chat for special subjects, instead of always posting on the list serve.

ATOM: Viola: yes.

CARRIE: Good idea. Viola!

VIOLA: But if you do that, answer to all in one message, then the subject gets lost. That has its problems too.

NORSEMAN: good idea,, more chats a month?

CARRIE: Maybe have 3 or 4 a week so that we clear certain issues

VIOLA: Alternate list serves, where certain subjects get posted on certain list serves, might be a solution too.

ATOM: Viola: yes, but you can answer to more folks in a message Re: same subject!

VIOLA: Problem with that is that not everyone has IRC.

NORSEMAN: Carrie: yes it might be a solution, as I suspect that the group will be much bigger in a few months..

VIOLA: I think for now, just stick to the subject and keep as we are.

NORSEMAN: Viola: agree.

VIOLA: Limit unneeded responses. I'm guilty of that, I respond to say "you're right" or some such, and this is not needed. 90% of our postings on the list serve have no data content.

CARRIE: But, Viola, these responses are important!

NORSEMAN: Carrie: it keeps the 'list' awake, so to speak

VIOLA: Maybe we need to add that to the list serve intro. Make your postings meaty, substantial, or don't post!

METS: Carrie: I agree

NORSEMAN: Viola: when do you think that the other list will be ready?

VIOLA: Then we could get on anyone who posts silly things. Norseman and I and Carrie are probably the worst offenders of that, we speak back on everything, a hangover from the beginning days when there was no activity.

CARRIE: If people know that we are in agreement, etc., then ideas can be built upon! Also, the 10% that contains data content is quality stuff! It got that way by the 90% other supporting it.

VIOLA: Carrie: they in essence say - you're right, or you're wrong, or good thought, or some such. Think of meetings, where order must be kept and the agenda moved along. Only one person at a time speaks, and if there are issues that need a vote, a vote is taken. Maybe we need more votes to get aye, nay, but not constant chatter on the list serve. I'm trying to keep it workable. Norseman: Lazarus took a month to get the TT list up, so I know it doesn't happen fast!

NORSEMAN: Viola: we should search for a solution, next week the chat for socializing, etc. Viola: OK.. :)

VIOLA: I'll remind him on this e-mail on all these subjects. Maybe he'll give me a time frame.

CARRIE: If there was some way to create message folders for each topic (like AOL does)

VIOLA: Norseman: Fortunately, for social chatter, private e-mail is a handy solution!

NORSEMAN: We should prevent that people will think "what a boring group of people"

VIOLA: I'll be proposing an introductory TT list thing on the list serve, later today. That will let any others know that their next game plan won't work.

VIOLA: Carrie: that would be great too! But those got out of hand too. The subjects would wander, and then the folder admin folks would go nuts trying to get folks back on track, reporting to another folder, etc.

CARRIE: Good idea, Viola.

VIOLA: Basically, the list serve as a single thread works well, as all are aware of every topic. We're a holistic group, and this keeps that tone.

CARRIE: One thing is that I am very impressed with how smart everyone on this list is! Every one of you amazes me!

VIOLA: Look what this disinfo specialist was trying to do, with all the scientific detail that was disinfo. He was trying to get folks non-holistic. Carrie: we have a really smart and talented group. I too have been impressed. Not the ordinary group at all!

NORSEMAN: Viola: Yes...

CARRIE: I think we all have one thing in common in terms of personality: we are all loners. That will keep us from being "herded" like the sheep that NWO wants

VIOLA: Carrie: absolutely! And independent minded! Don't want to be dominated by a bunch of rules, etc.

CARRIE: We want to be around others, but we don't need to be around others.

VIOLA: Carrie, a group that can't be undermined or subverted, I think they know that now for sure.