icon 08-Sep-96

Note: it is a general Troubled Times policy to change the names of IRC participants to screen names and remove personal discussions that occurred during the chat in the interests of privacy.

SHADOW: The gangs all here.

ATOM: So, what's the topic?

CARRIE: Viola; Shadow was just thinking about Atom and he showed. Then she thought about you, and you showed. I'm trying to get her to make me a millionaire!

SHADOW: I'm trying.

CARRIE: Try harder...I'm not rich yet!

SHADOW: Trying real hard now.

CARRIE: Look Shadow, I'll even split it with you 50/50.

VIOLA: The topic might be how to survive 15 Richter points - Rubellus and I both chatting about that with each other recently.

SHADOW: Carrie, As long as your rich, It doesn't matter about me.

ATOM: Yes, a good topic. Hard one.

NORSEMAN: Okay.. let's talk about that.

ATOM: Does anybody knows/experienced any quake yet (a hard one)?

CARRIE: One could try to survive, or one could face the inevitable with hosting one hell of an earthquake party!

SHADOW: I think, if we focus on the plates, we can make it.

NORSEMAN: if someone lives in a mountain area. I don't think that he would survive a 15 Richter quake.

VIOLA: My husband pointed out that air plane black boxes survive the fall, are designed to do that, so technology such as computer could be built better if one wanted.

CARRIE: My brother-in-law survived the Mexico City one in 1985.

SHADOW: Really!

VIOLA: What's the difference between a 9 and a 15 - magnitude of shock, which translates into jolt, I think.

ATOM: We had one light recently. I though I was sick, but then.

SHADOW: These plates have everything to do with us.

ATOM: Diff between 9 and 15... Not much, I guess, except in power

CARRIE: Buildings were crashing all around him, but he didn't run or panic. He stayed and tried to help others who were hurt.

VIOLA: Some of the worse damage is done by the jiggling that happens afterwards, not the initial jolt.

CARRIE: The aftershocks?

SHADOW: Oh yes, the aftershocks.

VIOLA: In fact, places resting on solid rock, rather than mushy watery places where liquefaction occurs, don't have much damage.

SHADOW: I had heard that once, the aftershocks are the bad things that will destroy.

CARRIE: Do you think that the quakes will occur along the documented faultlines or do you think there will be new faultlines?

NORSEMAN: Yes, I think they are worse. (the aftershocks)

ATOM: Yes, aftershock... And panic. Not to panic, to think clear is important. Can one learn this?

VIOLA: Liquefaction causes buildings to sink into the ground as though they were on quicksand, sometimes they just lean over.

NORSEMAN: I never experienced any earthquake.

SHADOW: Neither have I.

ATOM: I think quakes at 15 are no longer quake, but one big Earth quake.

VIOLA: Faultlines? Well, I think if continents move as they are projected to move, then all areas will have the jolt.

CARRIE: Yes Atom, one can learn. I can teach you how.

ATOM: Carrie: Really? Tell.

VIOLA: However, the faultlines will have movement, such as subduction, or sliding along, and that too causes damage. Along the San Andreas we have areas where you can see what the 1906 did. The fence just gets cut in two, and there is a 15 foot gap where it should have met, before. So, if the huge jolt is what we must survive, then what does that translate into?

ATOM: Uh, what level was 1906?

VIOLA: I discussed this with my husband, who is very mechanical, but only my ideas were out on the board at this time as he is in denial about all this.

NORSEMAN: Atom: 9 I guess. Viola am I right about that?

CARRIE: Watch movies of natural disasters. Tune everything else out but what is on that screen. Imagine you are a victim in the movie. What would you do? Rehearse this in your mind several times. Feel it! Then when the time comes, your response will be learned, almost instinctive.

VIOLA: Essentially, if one falls 2 feet one gets a bruise. If one falls 20 feet one breaks an arm. If one falls 2,000 feet one is a smear on the ground.

ATOM: Thanks, Carrie, I'll try.

CARRIE: So actually, there will be no place that is safe from quakes?

VIOLA: So .. the key to survival, both for folks and mechanical equipment one want to survive, is to not have to move more than a few feet, for one. Right?

NORSEMAN: I guess so, Viola..

ATOM: Viola: yes, the key is not to fall.

VIOLA: Atom: 1906 was a 9.0+

SHADOW: I have a book on that earthquake, will look it up today.

CARRIE: My grandmother survived that 1906. I think she said that she flattened herself on the floor. After the aftershocks, she got up and the house was still there, but everything inside was broken.

VIOLA: So, if one is hiding under a metal roof, curved into the ground on both sides which the wind can't life up, packed with earth, etc. Closed on both ends so the wind can't get a grips. Then comes the jolt - one slams into the side of the metal, rolls along the ground 2 feet, and gets only a bruise! Right?

ATOM: About protection for quakes. I've heard that some buildings that are important are built on top of some sort of balls, so they move differently than earth.

CARRIE: Shadow: this is where your geodesic domes come into play.

SHADOW: Yes, I know, but not yet.

VIOLA: Now, Rubellus suggested a raft on water with pontoons of inflated tires.

ATOM: Yes, water can protect.

VIOLA: Geodesic domes good as wind passes over! Won't lift up and fly away just as you need the metal roof.

NORSEMAN: Viola: interesting.

ATOM: Actually, I was thinking of going swimming in some lake at the time. Lakes don't have tides, I guess. At least not big ones.

VIOLA: He suggested staking the raft in shallow water, by many nylon ropes, so that it bobs and lurches around, but stays in one place. Kind of like those rides that one goes on at the fairs.

SHADOW: Atom, but I would imagine that you would get pulled under.

NORSEMAN: Atom: I wonder if my country will be safe at that time?

ATOM: Oxygen mask would do it. But I won't try it anyway. :-) No, your country is not quite safe.

VIOLA: Being submersed in water is the very best way. One might take a ride if the water moves overland, but other than that, less of a bump. No bruises.

NORSEMAN: Atom: where I live is not safe either.

CARRIE: Raft in shallow water would be OK as long as the movement of the earth did not cause huge waves.

SHADOW: With the movement of water though, you could possibly be thrown against an underground rock or such.

NORSEMAN: Shadow: I think you're right about that.

VIOLA: Oh, the water might move, but the cushioning is greater.

ATOM: Shadow: yes, swimming only in case of a build basin.

NORSEMAN: Atom: Could be an idea Atom.

VIOLA: Another idea on helping mechanical parts survive is to put them in water, or perhaps oil, as the jolt will be cushioned then.

RUBELLUS: Oh I just about need a Richter 10 to make it. its 2.30 AM here!

VIOLA: However, most computer parts require one not put water or oil on them, etc. or they will be ruined. Guess one could seal in plastic bags or some such.

ATOM: Oil would be better. Or even more dense stuff.

NORSEMAN: That's early, Rubellus.

ATOM: Yes, computer parts are sensitive. But if you seal computer parts, one by one. Won't they crash into one another when quakes. Even when in oil?

VIOLA: I should think there might be jell type substances that would not affect electrical parts, etc., could be put on circuit boards, and maybe just rinsed off afterwards, or put out to dry and evaporate, whatever.

NORSEMAN: Atom: but I don't think that one would be able to use his computer after the pole shift?

SHADOW: Anyway, I was talking about a tin roof over me with dirt piled on top.

VIOLA: Special pole shift jell! Sales would be brisk going into the big one.

ATOM: Norseman: that's true. Viola started about computers. I don't even plan to use it.

RUBELLUS: My raft concept will be something I will refine on my property was there any support for the idea?

ATOM: But computers or bulbs, there must be protection.

NORSEMAN: Atom: yes, you're right about that.

VIOLA: Think of the gravity fall. In air, you fall 200 feet and die. In water, you drop 200 feet and hardly feel it when you touch bottom. All movement is slowed and cushioned. Right?

ATOM: Yes, denser it is, slower it is. Air->water->oil->what's next?

SHADOW: Yes, but also there will be debris in the water.

ATOM: Aha, that red dust in the water, black.

VIOLA: Rubellus I think its a great idea, and we should have a topic in TT about such ideas! Computers, individual servers with dishes that can telecom to each other - this will be a means of communicating to each other afterwards.

ATOM: Perhaps, an artificial basin, full of water, but all covered.

SHADOW: Yes, that would work.

RUBELLUS: How about some bungee cord ... four strands four posts and computer slug in cradle in the middle.

ATOM: But that's quite complicated, I guess. Not all will make it.

VIOLA: The roads torn up, the bridges down, new waterways where we don't expect them, etc. No planes to fly, runways torn up and planes dashed and fuel running out - computers will be important!

NORSEMAN: Viola: yes, good idea.

ATOM: Yes, computers. If nothing else play tetris. :-)

VIOLA: Air->water->oil->special pole shift jell not yet manufactured :-)

SHADOW: But won't there be powerful winds too which means things will be flying.

CARRIE: Don't you have to have telephone lines to operate the computer modems? Won't they be down?

NORSEMAN: Shadow good point

SHADOW: Yes they will

ATOM: Modem can be replaced by some stuff (don't know, but some use it already).

NORSEMAN: Carrie: people will build new telephone lines above the surface..

SHADOW: You would have to partially go under ground and then have your computer in jell.


VIOLA: Oh, the winds one must deal with by being under the surface. Dig a wide trench, cover with a metal sheet, put earth over that so that there is no edge the winds can pick up. Best is if the cover is sod, as sod roots hold tight. Not a lot of earth on top, as it might come down on one, but enough to keep the roof on. Just some thought, maybe better if one uses mesh nets to secure the roof, putting the mesh into the sod roots on either side of the roof.

CARRIE: But what if one gets trapped in this metal shelter by falling debris, etc.?

SHADOW: I think that would be good.

VIOLA: Sod on a metal roof would dry up and not live - dumb idea on my part I think.

SHADOW: One could dig himself out, think about it. You can dig in snow, right? Well, same difference. I think this will be the only safe place to tell you the truth about it.

NORSEMAN: Shadow: yes, low to the surface etc.

ATOM: Won't underground tunnels collapse at 15 quakes?

SHADOW: Plus, have a big boulder inside with you so if anything collapses, that boulder will hold it up.

VIOLA: I expect, with 15 Richer point jolts, that there won't be any standing structures afterwards - houses, etc.

CARRIE: Not if one was trapped under lots of stuff like trees, steel beams from buildings, etc.

VIOLA: They will all fly off their foundations, all those corner joints wrenched and failing. My thought.

SHADOW: No, out in the country it would have to be done.

ATOM: Yes, no structures left. So keep a tent.

VIOLA: Trapped in metal? If one had just a sheet of metal, like tin roof, then this is light. If earth on all sides, just dig out, tunnel out.

NORSEMAN: Atom: yes a tent.

SHADOW: Yes, anyone can dig out if it means your life.

VIOLA: Have more than one entry/exit possibility, like all those little rodents that burrow - they have alternative exits in case snakes come after them.

ATOM: A metal roof, earth on it. Metal holds, earth slows the debris.

NORSEMAN: Shadow: you are right about that, Shadow.

SHADOW: Yes I keep seeing this in my mind. Better than dome homes.

CARRIE: And if one's oxygen supply holds up during the digging out process. That is why lots of trapped miners die, they run out of oxygen.

SHADOW: Won't take any money either.

VIOLA: Atom: Right, keep a tent and live in that afterwards, and then have building materials to construct housing afterwards.

SHADOW: You can have alternative holes, very small for air supply. A few might get covered but not all. Think about it. With pipes sticking out.

CARRIE: You are right. I'm going to be a digging fool!

SHADOW: Easily done. No money.

NORSEMAN: No money?

VIOLA: This is why the idea of straw bale houses, adobe bricks, old tires in walls, etc., rammed earth, is so appealing. Cheap, extends the available concrete mix, and quite livable.

ATOM: Yes, like those pipes we use on the sea. Something on top, that closes the pipe when there's danger.

SHADOW: Those can be built after the aftermath. Yes Most of us don't have a lot of money and can still survive this way, the cheap way. I know I could never afford a dome home yet.

CARRIE: That's right, Shadow.

SHADOW: So next alternative is a hole.

VIOLA: Well, I don't think the trench should be that deep, only just below the surface. The metal roof same as the ground surface. Not much will land on top, and if it was going to land on top it would anyway even if you were above ground, and you'd be just as dead. Same difference.

ATOM: Yes, no money. I made a panic in a local conference when describing that society can live without money. :-)

SHADOW: Very shallow.

NORSEMAN: Shadow: me either.

VIOLA: Atom: Right, submarines close the hatch. One could construct a hatch in the metal roof, and then just open the hatch, or more than one hatch, is best!

SHADOW: That's right, so I think this is what I will do when time comes.

NORSEMAN: Atom: it won't be easy for some people to live without money.

SHADOW: See, we are always thinking.

ATOM: Viola: that's right. When you finish a shelter, it should look as it is nothing is there. Same level as surroundings. Wind don't break.

SHADOW: Why won't money mean anything then?

ATOM: Norseman: yes, I've seen reactions.

VIOLA: Those hurricanes winds, they just rip anything above ground away, from the TV clips. Never been in such a wind.

SHADOW: Yes, like nothing there. No one would even know. I have been in them and they are bad, real bad.

CARRIE: We were sweating hurricane Fran!

SHADOW: I know. Still don't know about my people.

VIOLA: Without money folks will get into barter, the precursor of money anyway. What they need to survive will be priceless.

CARRIE: Haven't heard from anyone yet, Shadow?

SHADOW: If anyone has noticed, the barter system is already starting to happen.

VIOLA: Money is just paper or metal and is only good as the government backs it, all honor it, etc.

SHADOW: I give you this, and you give me that. Fair enough.

RUBELLUS: Hole/trench sounds OK but located where it can not easy fill with water, say a slope.

VIOLA: If no government, etc., would you give over your food supply if someone handed you some paper money?

ATOM: Viola: no way. Can I eat money?

SHADOW: The main thing we will be concerned about is after we survive, food and shelter. Not money.

VIOLA: You'd say, "give me your boots in exchange" :-)

CARRIE: Yes, the barter system will be strong afterwards. Will encourage people to work together.

ATOM: Shadow: yes, we will. But some will hold to their stuff, money is one.

VIOLA: Rubellus: absolutely! No low lying areas, or one would be sputtering!

SHADOW: We may have to eat the money.

NORSEMAN: Shadow: that are the most important things..

VIOLA: As there may be torrential rains too, drainage should be considered.

NORSEMAN: Shadow: do you how it tastes? :-)

ATOM: Shadow: yes, paper is sometimes food. But money has some protections that can be dangerous to eat.

VIOLA: Perhaps a trench on a slope, with a drain hole at the far end.

SHADOW: We will be coming up against very strong winds and rains, so precautions have to be taken when constructing this

RUBELLUS: I once read a survival book that said the best currency might be 22 rimfire bullets plus you have a use for them as well.

ATOM: Norseman: paper tastes ... well, good if you don't have other things. Money, never tried it.

SHADOW: Norseman, not yet, but might have to eat it, can't be worse than worms.

VIOLA: I think the rain will follow the pole shift, so one can come out, shaken but happy, and put up their tent in the pouring rains.

NORSEMAN: Viola: how many days of rain?

VIOLA: Well, and Jack thinks that needles and scissors will be valuable too!

ATOM: Viola: after coming out, yes, build a tent. But ...

VIOLA: Little things. Like perhaps a toothbrush. Condoms

ATOM: But. If you build a tent above surface - winds. If below - water.

SHADOW: This is when we will have to build a makeshift building of some kind.

VIOLA: Eye drops to clear the dust out.

SHADOW: Little time to do it too

CARRIE: Wine and other spirits.

VIOLA: Things we take for granted.



SHADOW: A lot is taken for granted right now.

ATOM: Shadow: too much taken for granted right now.

SHADOW: We will become alert about those things before the times come though.

VIOLA: Oh, the tent needs to be put up after that ghastly hour or hours when 15 Richter jolts are past, hurricane winds die down as the crust has stopped moving, etc.

RUBELLUS: definitely wine and spirits good for covering the abrasions!


VIOLA: Then folks crawl out and look around - houses down, raining muddy water from the volcanic dust, everyone wailing or in shock. Messy time!

CARRIE: Medical triage will need to be set up with makeshift medical supplies. Many people injured.

ATOM: Viola: I thought winds will continue for some time. Or was that volcanoes. Yes, stupid me.

SHADOW: Your system will also be messed up, and wine and spirits will make you use the bathroom and get the system working again.

VIOLA: Will need a good strong singer to sing songs at that time, keep a positive view. Medical tent - first one set up, for sure!

ATOM: Viola: Singing in the rain...:-)

CARRIE: I'll be the piano player!

VIOLA: Oh, hey, I'm for a glass of wine afterwards for sure!

SHADOW: Also, probably a good liar that can convince the people things will be all right. Not necessarily a liar but a good story teller.

NORSEMAN: Carrie: okay.

CARRIE: All right! I'm keeping the wine in the med tent!

VIOLA: My understanding is that the stopped rotation has no trauma except that folks are in shock.

NORSEMAN: Shadow: good point.

ATOM: Shadow: Yes, and even before. Telling kids we going on some crazy vacation.

VIOLA: Then for an hour the crust slides and stops sliding with a jolt. During that hour and I suppose for an hour or two afterwards, hurricane winds and the huge tidal waves.

SHADOW: Yes, this will be a hell of a ride, excuse the language, but am telling the truth.

VIOLA: This is because its not the fall that hurts, its the sudden stop at the end of the fall. Equivalent, its not the move, its the stop.

CARRIE: Tell the kids to pretend they are on the wildest ride ever at Disneyland!


NORSEMAN: Carrie: yes.

SHADOW: But put in a little bit of truth so they will mind you.

VIOLA: Thought I suspect that tidal waves may happen at the crustal movement, would they not to some degree? As water may not want to move with the crust.

ATOM: Viola: yes, stop is a problem. Or with quakes when direction changes. That's when buildings fall.

RUBELLUS: Once slept in a flooded tent quite well my best companion was a bundaberg rum.

CARRIE: How about I'll beat their butts if they don't mind?!

NORSEMAN: Carrie: no.

SHADOW: You won't have time for that. They have to mind for we will also require their help too.

CARRIE: Yes, the stop will be the worst. That is when all the forces pull against each other with our frail bodies in the middle!


CARRIE: No, I don't believe in hitting kids, anyway!

SHADOW: I know that

CARRIE: I just ground them for eternity!

VIOLA: The book Rubellus recommended and another I have called Peace of Mind in Earthquake Country spells that out, Atom.

SHADOW: My daughter already knows about this anyway. Eternity could come soon.

CARRIE: Good, Shadow, you are an excellent mommy!

SHADOW: I hear you.

NORSEMAN: Shadow: eternity could come soon, what do you mean?

VIOLA: Buildings next to each other, when they are not the same height, get a different vibration reaction to a jolt, and rather than moving like so many little dominoes all in a row, synchronously, they crash into each other.

SHADOW: Well, doesn't one of your children know about it?

VIOLA: So, short building next to tall building, the short one crashes into the side of the tall one, bends it over, etc.

SHADOW: Some will not make it Norseman, and to them, that would be eternity. Death

ATOM: Viola: yes, staying out of buildings, away from anything that may fall on you, trees, rocks.

VIOLA: One should not be in buildings during this time, I suspect, at all.

NORSEMAN: Shadow: OK, I know what you mean.

SHADOW: That's right.

NORSEMAN: Viola: right.

SHADOW: In the country if possible. Norseman, okay.

CARRIE: The safest place would probably be someplace very flat - like North or South Dakota.

SHADOW: Now, Viola, you said that the comet is in view now, right?

CARRIE: Lots of open flat areas.

NORSEMAN: What about desert area's?

SHADOW: Can not be too flat.

ATOM: Carrie: yes, flat, but within mountains to stop the wind is also OK.

SHADOW: Flooding, remember.

VIOLA: You electrical genius - is there some kind of jell that electric circuit boards could be put into, that would not harm them?

SHADOW: Mountains will come down.

ATOM: Viola: silicon. You buy stuff in it. It also turns water away.

SHADOW: Mountains on one side in the background maybe would be safe. Not all around though.

CARRIE: The best place to be is in a "ship" while all this is happening.

VIOLA: Mountain ranges ride over the plains next to them, sometimes, depending on what's happening with the plates.

SHADOW: Will make a pond on you if you're not careful.

ATOM: Didn't mean mountains but hills, or similar small stuff.

NORSEMAN: Carrie: as Noah did?


VIOLA: During a recent pole shift, per Velikovsky, Chief Mountain moved 100 miles or some such, over the plains.

SHADOW: Yes, plus mountains will also be made.

VIOLA: Best to be on the part that's going for a ride, not on the part that will go under, be ridden over.


ATOM: Viola: 100 miles. Should I end up in another country. Huh, I'll need a passport.

CARRIE: True, Viola!

VIOLA: Oh! Atom! Marvelous! Silicon is everywhere - cheap!

CARRIE: Just jump on the next mountain coming through

SHADOW: Yeah, hahaha

VIOLA: Hills coming down? Yup, in California that happens all the time, mud slides. Treacherous.

ATOM: Not silicon. It's some silicon kit or something. But it's cheap, I guess. They wouldn't just give it with stuff otherwise.


SHADOW: Yes mountains coming down, mountains forming up.

VIOLA: The hills are not rock, but loose mud and gravel. Quake comes, it jiggles down or the undercurrent of water creates a slippery layer under the soil, giving it a slide ride.


ATOM: Norseman: you were asking if here is a safe place. Will you come here? You're going under water, I guess?

NORSEMAN: Atom: our country will be under water, but I am thinking to move to the states.

CARRIE: Australia looks like it may be pretty safe.


ATOM: Norseman: no problem. Your choice.

VIOLA: If on solid rock, the jolt from earthquake is less, as you get only the initial jolt, not many jiggles afterwards. Folks on Nob HIll in San Francisco didn't lose their houses in 1906 quake, where those on mushy soil had a pile of rubble.

ATOM: Carrie: east only, I guess.

NORSEMAN: Atom: okay.

SHADOW: That's true

VIOLA: Atom - on that silicon stuff, can you get me the name of that? I think we should start a Survive the 15 Point Quake topic, for sure, this discussion and more.

SHADOW: Anyway, wherever we all go, we will need mountains way in the background.

VIOLA: Like we started the Check List topic based on a chat.

CARRIE: That's right!

ATOM: Viola: I'll check the real name.

SHADOW: Carrie, still thinking riches. Are you rich yet?

NORSEMAN: Viola: that would be a good topic, important.

CARRIE: Of course, Shadow.

SHADOW: Aalllright!

CARRIE: Getting there. I can feel it. I can feel IRS on the tail of it.

VIOLA: Many people mention they are heading for Colorado, which is in the mountains but would take a ride over the plains, also is far enough east that hot earth would not be a problem.

CARRIE: Oops, IRS stole it all. But, thanks anyway, Shadow.

SHADOW: I'll try again some other time (riches).