icon 14-Jul-96

Note: it is a general Troubled Times policy to change the names of IRC participants to screen names and remove personal discussions that occurred during the chat in the interests of privacy.

VIOLA: I registered TT on all the search engines that I know about, a week ago. Wonder if this will pick up interest in the group. What's your overall sense of the direction TT is taking, what it is offering vs what folks will be looking for?

NORSEMAN: I think that most people will search for ways how to survive in the Aftertime. And last week Carrie mentioned something about a back-up plan.

VIOLA: What did she mean by a back-up plan? My sense, as much from my own plans as any, is that most folks will need at least 2 plans.

NORSEMAN: What if the things we mention on TT will be destroyed etc. that kind of thing ..

VIOLA: Plan 1: living their life as it is today, as though there were not going to be a PS. Plan 2: an emergency place to go to and a way to grow food, should that become necessary. I guess what we're doing is giving them Plan 2 info.

NORSEMAN: Yes I think so..

VIOLA: Most people don't have the resources to live the life they ARE living, according to the expectations others put on them anyway. You know, we're expected to marry, have kids, buy a nice car, take the family on vacation, dress competitively, whatever.


VIOLA: All this takes all the time and money and energy that one has! So then, fit in the PS, and one has to cut back on the other things in order to fit in a back-up plan, Plan 2. Then the spouse and kids complain. My thoughts on the offerings we do is that they should be inexpensive and not take up a lot of room, for that reason. The more that folks can just slip this in on the side, the more that it will be done.

NORSEMAN: What if someone who survived the PS is on his own, no other to count on for a period of time. What kind of info can we give so that they also can survive in that period of time?

VIOLA: For instance, earthworms. One could have a bed in the basement! Why not! Other than being considered eccentric, what's the problem? Lone wolf scenario. That brings up a point I was wanting to talk about - check lists.

NORSEMAN: I forgot that it's already on the TT page..

VIOLA: For this person, or any person, there should be an emergency backpack for just such a situation.


VIOLA: You've researched survival stuff a bit, Norseman, and I've done some camping. Lets just list off the stuff we would want with us if we were to become lost in the woods. First off, I'd want matches, a dry, water proofed pack of matches. Then high protein food. Then some vitamins in case I had to start eating whatever in the woods and didn't want to get weak or whatever.

NORSEMAN: A compass, a knife, matches ..

VIOLA: Compass would be no use due to the confusion in the core, maybe a map would be better!


VIOLA: As its going to be raining a lot, a waterproof cover, like a tarp.

NORSEMAN: I saw on the TT list that you mentioned something about matches (waterproof?)

VIOLA: I think a group, like a family or extended family, should have a place to meet, so that if they get separated, or if the PS happens and they weren't all able to get together ahead of time, then they could find each other.

NORSEMAN: Yes, I agree with you about that..

VIOLA: Well, a match won't work unless its dry, and has a dry surface to scratch against. So, sealed packs in plastic, my thought. Injuries will certainly occur. There are first aid packets for this type of thing, with instructions on how to use, like tourniquets, etc. You know, how to set a broken limb, how to stop bleeding, etc. And these kits have a small supply of medicines, like antiseptics to kill germs in an open wound, etc.

NORSEMAN: aha...

VIOLA: So, that's a good start on a back-pack supply. What about the first day after a PS, or, the day before! If the rotation of the Earth has stopped, and folks are waiting, biting their nails, for the PS, then they would not want to be in a building that would fall on them, collapse. Right?


VIOLA: I sort of plan to be in a tent kind of thing, under a metal roof. The roof would only be there to protect from rain and firestorms.

NORSEMAN: Yes I will do the same thing,, ...

VIOLA: My thought on this, and per conversations I've had with others on this, is to make what is called, I believe, a barrel house.

NORSEMAN: Barrel house?

VIOLA: This is like if you cut a metal barrel in half, down the middle, and laid each side cut side on the ground. Then this gives a smooth surface for wind to move over, doesn't lift with the strong winds, and gives protection from the firestorms. I think the military uses these, too. Of course, the barrel is not used, its just the shape that I'm talking about :-)

NORSEMAN: okay :) I don't have many ideas at this moment, sorry for that..

VIOLA: One could take metal sheeting, slightly curved like maybe the kind that they make vats out of, water reservoirs or to hold gasoline or a large liquid container. Put the curved pieces of metal on the ground, so they curve into the ground, and hide under that curve during the high winds and firestorms possibilities. Like the letter U upside down, like that, but more flattened so the winds just roll over it. Now, that would also force folks to lie down, which they should be doing anyway. Have you ever gone camping, Norseman?

NORSEMAN: And what about hiding below the surface. Viola: no camping, never ..

VIOLA: Oh, I've taken my kids when they were little. A good experience now that we're planning for the PS The reason matches come to mind is an experience I had bought some wood for the campfire, and it was green. What did I know. I tried about 20 times to get that lit, match after match, and the fire would burn a little bit and then die out. I didn't know why!

NORSEMAN: Yes, if people now a little about camping and survival it will be a good..

VIOLA: Finally a man at the campsite across the way couldn't stand it anymore, a woman with little kids, and he knew what was wrong. He brought an armful of wood over, dried wood, and had the fire roaring in no time.

NORSEMAN: but after the PS it will rain a lot. Dry wood?

VIOLA: So during this waiting time, when the little kids have to be quite and lie down under a metal roof and they don't understand why, it would be good to have something to read, toys for them, etc. Make a game out of it.

NORSEMAN: Yes, that will make them less scared etc., ... people can do strange thing when they are scared..

VIOLA: Its supposed to rain a lot, as the oceans have been roiled and all, and I think the clouds are low down. In other words, we have a thinner atmosphere, it rebuilds. The historical records have folks saying, there were living in the clouds then.

NORSEMAN: The Valley of Death?

VIOLA: Maybe it just was foggy and misty, etc., I'm not sure. Yes, the Valley of Death, gloomy. Now, a portable potty would be handy for that waiting period, so that folks could stay under the metal roof, just get up and sit on it for a moment, then lie back down. Like the little potties they have for boats, etc.,

NORSEMAN: Do we already have info about recreation after the Pole Shift, no TV etc.

VIOLA: Also, foods that don't require preparation or cooking, as if the PS comes when the cook is out over the stove, she or he could get hurled and burned, etc.


VIOLA: No, actually, no one has talked about that, no TV etc.

ACE: Hi all

VIOLA: This is an area we will need to address, listing ways folks can plan to amuse themselves, as they'll need it.

VIOLA: ACE! Hello hello hello! We're just talking about check lists, on what folks will need for the PS

ACE: OK ... cool

VIOLA: We went through the back-pack for day one after the shift, in case one is alone or traveling, etc. Then we went through the day before the shift, waiting for the PS while lying under a metal roof. Ace, if you were to be alone in the woods, what would YOU want with you? We thought of matches, map, knife, first-aid kit, tarp.

ACE: Maybe some kind of tent

VIOLA: Then for the waiting day, we thought of a metal roof, curved so it meets the ground on both sides for wind resistance,

NORSEMAN: Ace, I mentioned recreation after the Pole Shift. No TV etc. What do you think?

VIOLA: Porta-potty for use under the metal roof, reading material and toys for the kids, ready to eat stuff so everyone can just wait those few days until the shift. Right, we were at recreation after the shift, no TV.

ACE: books ... novels are needed

NORSEMAN: Yes and toys for the children

ACE: Porta-potty?

VIOLA: Well, so much of your time is spent watching other people act, sing, play music, etc. I think there should be an emphasis on how to build and play musical instruments, how they work, and the like. The kind of potty that folks take on boats if the boat doesn't have a head. Portable, small. Like the kind of thing little kids sit on, but it has chemical stuff in the base that keeps the smell down, etc. So, if it were the day after the shift, and the injuries have been tended to, then what would folks be looking for next? My first thought is that a more permanent structure should be build. Maybe a large tent at first?

ACE: I would think shelters and foods .. water

NORSEMAN: Food.. I think that food is the first thing that people are looking for after the PS

VIOLA: Something like foam mats for mattresses, blankets, should be stored. When we went camping, those foam mattresses were wonderful! Otherwise every pebble on the ground was like a punch in the back!

ACE: A portable tent is important for those after the PS

VIOLA: Food, you're right! Especially after having eaten ready-to-eat stuff for days.


VIOLA: I think that any hydroponics beds or fish tanks that folks have set up and operational will be damaged by the shift, have to be repaired. Probably the first order of business after tending to human injuries.

ACE: How about sleeping bags?

NORSEMAN: Ace: good point..

VIOLA: Right on! Sleeping bags! Especially for cold nights, they're great.

ACE: Easy to carry around too

VIOLA: Some stock supplies that will take awhile to make on one's own should be stored up, like toilet paper. I use Q-Tips a lot, those little cotton tipped things, and would be at a loss without them.

NORSEMAN: Viola: and medicines...

VIOLA: Soap, cotton balls, lots of underwear, shoes.

ACE: Hey ... what about stocking up vitamin supplements?

VIOLA: Medicines will be a big worry for those who need them regularly. Lots of meds need to be fresh to be potent. Refrigerated in some cases. Even if folks bring their own meds, if someone needs a regular supply, they're in trouble. Vitamins, for sure! And if inland, iodized salt.

NORSEMAN: Ace: it's an idea, but they won't last for ever ...

VIOLA: Water purification? Are there means to do that? Filters, or ways to distill the water so one leaves pollutants and lead behind?

ACE: Should start to get some info on home remedies ... alternative medicines

VIOLA: Vitamins are cheap and keep well for years. Should have lots so that one is well during the time it takes to get vegetables growing, etc.

ACE: Norseman: you're right..

NORSEMAN: Viola: some time ago I saw a advertisement a the backside of a magazine about a water purifier..

VIOLA: Herbal medicines are a topic under study in TT, as they can be grown and maybe a substitute for meds that can't be manufactures or gotten.

NORSEMAN: Viola: I saw that, I think it's good to know something about herbal medicines..

ACE: Yeah herbal medicines ... also medicines that are from common household stuffs

NORSEMAN: Maybe we could look for some info how the Native Americans helped those who where wounded etc., the things they used ...

ACE: Norseman: good idea

NORSEMAN: Ace: they found a lot of medicines etc. in nature..

ACE: Yeah .. we should collect some info on those

NORSEMAN: You're right.. I will try to find some info on it,, maybe there is info about it on the WWW?

ACE: You know I heard you could treat various of diseases with a mixture of garlic and vodka.. What about eastern type medicine?

NORSEMAN: Aha... You mean?

ACE: like Chinese medicine

NORSEMAN: I don't know much about Chinese medicine

ACE: They used a lot of natural ingredients ... mushroom, etc.

NORSEMAN: So if we know which kind of mushroom they use.. I understand..

ACE: I mean we could take a variety of common stuffs and mixed them for treating various injuries ... illnesses

NORSEMAN: Yes .... okay ... But we should be careful that we don't use the wrong stuff, some herbals etc. could be bad if they are used.

VIOLA: Well, the American Indians and lots of cultures use herbs, etc.

VIOLA: Penicilin came from the Indians. Its a very important chapter in the TT offerings, I have no doubt.

NORSEMAN: It could be an idea to find some info how the natives helped the wounded people etc. .. that kind of thing. Without the help of modern medicine.

VIOLA: Getting back to the checklist, my current obsession, if folks are going to have to live for weeks just after the shift on supplies, they would need a food stock, right? Beans and rice are a favorite, and canned protein such as tuna or beef. Dried foods are great, but they're so expensive.


VIOLA: Oh, I know, dried milk powder! Perfect for kids. They do have dried egg too, maybe its not too expensive. Protein power, that the health food stores sell, would be good! Flavorings, like soup stock and herbs and the like would be good, as if one has to start mixing in worms and bugs, then flavoring is a real help. There's a comic in today's Sunday paper, Frumpy the Clown, about eating worms. It's excellent, and I'm going to try to contact the publisher and ask if we can reprint the comic as a graphic for TT, off the "Protein" section in foods.

ACE: These are not necessary...but what about cooking oil and spices

NORSEMAN: Viola: that's an idea,, and it will be good for children..

VIOLA: Pioneer joked about eating worms, eating a Snickers before and after, and humor is important to help deal with these issues. Right! You must be a cook, Ace!

NORSEMAN: Viola: what about mealworms?

VIOLA: Probably Ace at cooking too (hee hee).

ACE: :) I like to cook

VIOLA: Yes, yes, moving to the next stage, when they have to grown their own food. They should have the supplies handy to start this operation. So, what do mealworms eat?

NORSEMAN: Viola: a week or two weeks after the shift.

VIOLA: Earthworms are easy, they eat dirt and if one throws in the garbage, they eat that and then taste better for eat when we eat them! Do mealworms eat garbage, etc.?

NORSEMAN: Viola: i don't know what they eat...

VIOLA: I know that growing fish in tanks can be a delicate operation, as they can get diseases, fungus and the like, need oxygen and moving water, I think.

ACE: Viola: you're right, can't just dump everything into the fish tanks

VIOLA: Plus, if the PS breaks the tanks, then the water spills out and one has dead fish.

NORSEMAN: Yes, so these tanks need some kind of mechanism that will prevent the water from standing still ... ?

ACE: What about stainless steel tanks

VIOLA: Yeah, I'm not sure about all that, just know that there can be problems, but fish farming is an established operation, so I'm sure all this has been written up in books, etc. If one lines the tanks with plastic, then maybe losing all will be minimized during the shift, you know, using a plastic liner.

NORSEMAN: Good point

ACE: Yeah, plastic...

VIOLA: What happens to metal during violent earthquakes? I know metal frame buildings do better than others, that's for sure. The metal flexes. Also, circular structures resist EQ better than square. An oval or circle is resistant, no weak points to take stress, its spread all over. Good point, Ace.

NORSEMAN: Viola: and what about preventing the fishtanks from being destroyed or damaged by the firestorms?

VIOLA: On the hydroponics beds, I suggested wooden beds lined with plastic at first for 3 reasons. 1: they are cheap to build, 2: they will be a mess after the PS but could be rebuilt quickly, so the plants don't even die in the meantime. 3: later, after the shift, more permanent ones can be built in trenches in the ground, concrete beds, etc.


VIOLA: Hydroponics need nutrients, these are chemicals in bags, and these need to be stocked. The whole issue of power, too, small windmill that can be erected after the shift (before hand it would be torn apart by the winds). Also, water wheels, like Pelton, as with a lot of rain folks can take advantage of this to generate power.

ACE: have to built the mill after the PS

NORSEMAN: Viola: I think it's good to stock these things below the surface .. that kind of thing..

VIOLA: You know, we think of damming rivers to get the hydro power, but why not capture the runoff from the roof to generate a families power? Right! One the list, a wind resistant below the surface stash place! Tools Tools! We forgot about tools on the list.

NORSEMAN: Tools .. they are important..

VIOLA: Saw, hammer, wrench, screw driver, and lots of wire - screws, bolts, hand tools is what is needed.

NORSEMAN: Swiss army knives?

ACE: Yeah...chain saw

NORSEMAN: Small and handy

VIOLA: You know, in the short term, for electricity, the bike rack arrangement would be great! Also, gives those who don't know how else to help something to do. Tell the kids, stop whining and get on the bike and pedal, talk to the kid next to you about things, etc.

NORSEMAN: Yes.....

ACE: Good exercise too

VIOLA: Chain saw run off the kids pumping legs :-). Dad says, "pump, pump!" And the kids see what the results are, they'll be part of the solution, feel needed, always a good thing, brings families together.

NORSEMAN: Good point.. Viola

VIOLA: Talking about kids, we need to add text books to the list. Everyone assumes that schools will be teaching the kids, and text books get thrown away! They should be saved, bought up, sometime in used book stores or wherever, as they will be new to the kids growing up after the shift!

NORSEMAN: Yes those things are important, but what about infants, small children..

VIOLA: I bought that book that suggested on the list, that German book on how things work, and its great! I don't understand the words, but the diagrams say it all! Infant formula is available dried, preferred form actually as it doesn't spoil. Little kids need toys, and the best toys are educationally directed. Although, all toys teach and amuse little kids. When my kids were babies, I was very poor and had to make toys. I let them play with the can and pots and pans, that type of thing. You'd be amazed at how creative kids are, building things and discovering physics, etc.

NORSEMAN: Self-made toys,, they also do it in African countries (poor countries)

ACE: What about woods carved into various letters and puzzle games

VIOLA: But certainly, if parents who are going to be distracted with trying to get living situation going again, toys and amusements for the little kids, and a flexible plastic playpen that won't break during the shift is an excellent addition to the list. Yes! Toys stocked should not be just stuffed animals and the like, but selected for their educational value. The parent has to think, what if there were no schools!

ACE: the adults could curved woods for recreation and kids used it as toys

NORSEMAN: Parents have to teach their children themselves..

VIOLA: Right on! Keep Grandpa's hands busy and make him feel wanted and needed! What about communication? Short wave radio? Is this something that can work with little power? Of course, as soon as one starts talking about short wave or another kind of thing, the danger in being discovered and raided comes up.

NORSEMAN: Viola: maybe with a car battery?

VIOLA: If groups agree ahead of time the channel and general time frames, they may be able to talk to one another.

NORSEMAN: Viola: what's the name that people who drives cars etc. use to communicate with each other?

VIOLA: Batteries should be stocked, too, although they'll run down soon, but in the short term they would provide lights so the other things, like windmills, can be put up. Hard to assemble things in the gloom and dark.

ACE: Yeah ... have to find ways to communicate with other groups - walky talky :)

VIOLA: Know what just popped into my mind? What if groups agree on a code system, so that even if someone catches their channel they can't understand exactly what has been said!

NORSEMAN: Ace: something like that..

VIOLA: Like not everything would need to be coded, but important things like locations could be coded.

NORSEMAN: Viola: good point

VIOLA: Words for supplies could be coded, so if you say how many feathers do you have, they are talking about bags of beans, or something.

NORSEMAN: This helps from being located by STS ..

VIOLA: I guess if one doesn't stay on the line too long, then raiding groups can't locate them. Kind of like the 3 minute thing on tracing a phone call.


VIOLA: Guess it would be more than 3 minutes, but a limited time. Clocks, watches, as if folks are going to be communicating with each other, they can't do it by the rising or setting sun, as it will be gloomy all the time. That's not precise anyway.

ACE: Groups have to make up the own code...before the PS

VIOLA: Non-battery operated watches and clocks! The older kind. Manual winding.

NORSEMAN: Ace: Yes, make agreements with each other etc..

VIOLA: Tape, twine, thread, scissors and needles. Some lumber? Board to build temp structures such as bracing? Sheet metal? Depends on what kind of structure they intend to build after the shift, other than a tent. Concrete bags? Nails?

ACE: What about making yarn from rabbit furs?

NORSEMAN: Yes .....

ACE: Yarning techniques...

VIOLA: That's where some of these new building techniques like rammed earth are handy. One can hand-ram, and it makes the concrete extent by 10 times or some such number. Rabbits are a good idea for food, too. They eat the trash from hydroponics, stalks and the like, and are meat and fur too! Plus, I guess they could be pets for the kids, although that's a catch-22. When it comes time to eat the pet, lots of conflict!

NORSEMAN: Yes, Rabbits we talked about them some time ago..

VIOLA: Yarn, yeah, that's why I posted that spinning and weaving technique. I didn't do that for knitting as this is such a common thing, and there are lots of good books out there. Should have some on the Book List, I suppose.

ACE: We could feed them veggies scraps...


VIOLA: Lots of folks might think that petrol should be stored, but I think that's very dangerous, would probably burn and burn everything else up too.

ACE: Need to get info on how to make yarn from various furs ...

VIOLA: Good point! Though the spinning technique is the same. However, I think that fur has short fibers, and they won't catch and cling like cotton or wool does.

NORSEMAN: You're right about that.. we should mention on one of the TT pages that's better not to store petrol..

VIOLA: Cotton is a good crop in this regard. Maybe if the fur was mixed with other fibers? On the list, I think there might be an anti-list too, a what not to have around.

ACE: I think cotton don't grow very well in damp, wet climates

VIOLA: Guns and amo is a personal choice, in my opinion. Folks are going to do or not do according to their opinion today, I suspect.

NORSEMAN: Yes, anti-list that's a good point. Things not to use or to store etc..

VIOLA: I was wondering about that, cotton. Not the only fiber thought. Actually, any plant fiber will do. Basket weaving is another thing I though should be included, how-to.

NORSEMAN: Okay ...

VIOLA: And pottery, the basic principles, so that this can be done after the shift. All primitive cultures make pottery, just bake it in a fire, fire the pottery, then it can be used.

NORSEMAN: Good point....

VIOLA: To waterproof, must coat the surface, and be sure not to use a leaded coating, etc.

ACE: Hey everyone ... Think it's time for me to go

VIOLA: You took the words out of my mouth!

VIOLA: I was just going to suggest that this was an excellent session but we should not make them run more than an hour or so. Folks get exhausted, and I'm there now! Time to say good-bye?

ACE: good-bye :)

NORSEMAN: Yes... I think it's time to say good bye..